missa
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One Eye Blind, and One All Seeing Eye
Posts: 20
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Post by missa on Mar 3, 2010 15:53:18 GMT -5
I think that its necessity depends on how functional it should be for you. But then again, it never hurts to understand more and more language, especially when the rest of the family or friends among you speak it. My dad is a north sumatra descendant altho he was born, raised n have been living in Jakarta his whole life. But he has to understand north sumatra language coz when it comes to the big family gathering, he, as the oldest in his generation, must be able to speak to the elders in his native tribe language, or lead some ceremonies or family meetings in that language too. BUT! the language has also become a lil lost when it comes to my generation, but we are still expected to be able to speak it somehow when it comes our turn to lead these meetings n gatherings in the future (I can just avoid this tho since I'm a girl and it's a very patriarchal culture anyway from my dad's side)... :s And then there's also the issue that as I am friends with a lot of dutch-indo kids who are born n raised in holland, and dated some, I personally hated it when they started speaking in dutch too much and I couldn't understand what they were talking about. As a lot of them couldn't speak indonesian, but speak good english, I'd hv prefered it much if we could just use the language we could all understand. I can only understand very little dutch coz when I was little sometimes my granma or mom might scold me using dutch language. Mom also hv been urging me to learn dutch. I personally think that learning a lot of languages is a good thing. In my experience, I kinda find it very annoying when I know someone is talking about me in another language and when I'm around (let's just say I can understand the body language and probably bits and pieces of the words), and I find it annoying when some people don't speak a language they need to be using properly ("me love you long time" much? *barfs...) lol... So, if u think u're gonna use a lot of it, then why not learn it, but for the rest, perhaps just simple greetings r ok, u never know when ur feet might land on other countries that don't speak other languages but their own. Plus, I believe the saying is... When in Rome, do as the Romans do...
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Post by Ganbare! on Mar 4, 2010 17:54:19 GMT -5
Something that happens fairly regularly is Caucasians complaining that I'm not fluent enough in Mandarin, it used to be worse when I did not speak Chinese at all, a couple years ago, they would tell me that I fail because of that. Being patronized by people who barely master the subtleties of their own mother tongue was simply appalling.
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Post by jefe on Mar 20, 2010 15:51:38 GMT -5
I personally hated it when they started speaking in dutch too much and I couldn't understand what they were talking about. As a lot of them couldn't speak indonesian, but speak good english, I'd hv prefered it much if we could just use the language we could all understand. Plus, I believe the saying is... When in Rome, do as the Romans do... Sounds a bit contradictory to me -- what should Dutch-speaking Indos be doing when they visit Indonesia? Speak English? Actually, I think it is OK to speak even if I could speak Dutch to Dutch-speaking Indos in a 4th country, say, Brazil or Japan -- while you might want to do as the Romans do, it should also be fine to do something else as well.
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missa
New Member
One Eye Blind, and One All Seeing Eye
Posts: 20
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Post by missa on Mar 21, 2010 0:29:31 GMT -5
I personally hated it when they started speaking in dutch too much and I couldn't understand what they were talking about. As a lot of them couldn't speak indonesian, but speak good english, I'd hv prefered it much if we could just use the language we could all understand. Plus, I believe the saying is... When in Rome, do as the Romans do... Sounds a bit contradictory to me -- what should Dutch-speaking Indos be doing when they visit Indonesia? Speak English? Actually, I think it is OK to speak even if I could speak Dutch to Dutch-speaking Indos in a 4th country, say, Brazil or Japan -- while you might want to do as the Romans do, it should also be fine to do something else as well. LOL... I didn't mean that to be contradictory... but if u combine those two statements like that, then I think I owe a further explanation For the first one, imagine a situation where u gather with a group of people, a section speaks dutch n english, n the other speaks indonesian n english (owh, this happens a lot with me n my dutch-indo friends), since the language all know (in common) is english, then I think it's only polite for each other in the group to stick to the language all know, if we all know some other language as well, yea why not... It is ok in my opinion for u to speak dutch to a dutch speaking indo in brazil, but when talking to a brazilian who does not speak any other language other than his/her own local tongue, it'd be more convenient, for me that is, if I had known the language and understand the customs. I've had the experience of going to a small small town in Holland where people basically speak dutch n were quite reluctant to speak english (or other languages for that matter) I found it hard to communicate (since I didn't listen to my Mom n learn my dutch) and would be helplessly lost if it weren't for my dutch (and english) speaking boyfriend. So, maybe, it's better to say, when facing a fully Roman person in Rome, I better do as the Romans do? Well, something like that I guess... I hope I made myself a lil clearer??? Sorry if I created some sort of confusion or misunderstanding...
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Post by jefe on Mar 21, 2010 14:51:28 GMT -5
since the language all know (in common) is english, then I think it's only polite for each other in the group to stick to the language all know, if we all know some other language as well, yea why not... Can you also accept that this is also simply a point a view? ie, it may also be considered to be impolite if you INSIST that everyone speak the only common language (eg, English) because you believe that it is *only polite*. Suppose I was with you and your friends, some of which spoke Indonesian / English, some of which spoke Dutch /English and suppose that I spoke English, some Indonesian, but not Dutch, but some other languages as well. I also brought some friends with me that spoke English / Tagalog, some that spoke Cantonese and English, some that spoke Japanese/Mandarin and a little English. Would you insist that I was rude if I occasionally used some non-English languages with them with YOU present? I used to think like you (when I was younger), but later on, I completely changed my point of view about it and felt it was rather impolite to insist that any particular person speak only one certain language in any particular case or in my presence -- to insist that on another person could also be rather impolite. Now I completely accept others speaking any language that they want to, and I expect the same of others (to accept my speaking any language I want to as well). In fact, if the others speak langauges I don't know well, if at all, it is an opportunity for me also (to expose myself further). --> As long as they do not do it for the sole purpose of excluding me -- still I don't mind if they do it as long as they explain it to me (so I can understand next time).
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tbw
Full Member
Posts: 332
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Post by tbw on Mar 21, 2010 20:27:42 GMT -5
I have an issue learning languages (mainly because I can't seem to hear to tones properly mandrin has 4, but cantonese has several.) But that doesn't mind at all if others use what ever they want to communicate when they talk even if english is the common language.
I accept this because there are sometimes when you can't express yourself in one language, but you can in another...the whole lost in translation thing. Some languages have a plan on words and while it is funny in that language, its not when you translate it.
I know the basics of mandarin and it was enough to get by, family expects very little in the way of communication, but when you can communicate in their first language, it makes them feel good too! Especially given the fact that you are trying.
As for learning a language that you won't really use much, it might be best to do as your suggest - just learn the basics. Anything of the more formal complexities about the language can be just noted into a notebook so can be referred to later.
I love having a small note book in foreign countries, so when i hear or learn a new word, I will write it down. Its fun to read back on the words and know what they mean or how to use them!
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missa
New Member
One Eye Blind, and One All Seeing Eye
Posts: 20
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Post by missa on Mar 22, 2010 13:48:24 GMT -5
since the language all know (in common) is english, then I think it's only polite for each other in the group to stick to the language all know, if we all know some other language as well, yea why not... Can you also accept that this is also simply a point a view? ie, it may also be considered to be impolite if you INSIST that everyone speak the only common language (eg, English) because you believe that it is *only polite*. Suppose I was with you and your friends, some of which spoke Indonesian / English, some of which spoke Dutch /English and suppose that I spoke English, some Indonesian, but not Dutch, but some other languages as well. I also brought some friends with me that spoke English / Tagalog, some that spoke Cantonese and English, some that spoke Japanese/Mandarin and a little English. Would you insist that I was rude if I occasionally used some non-English languages with them with YOU present? I used to think like you (when I was younger), but later on, I completely changed my point of view about it and felt it was rather impolite to insist that any particular person speak only one certain language in any particular case or in my presence -- to insist that on another person could also be rather impolite. Now I completely accept others speaking any language that they want to, and I expect the same of others (to accept my speaking any language I want to as well). In fact, if the others speak langauges I don't know well, if at all, it is an opportunity for me also (to expose myself further). --> As long as they do not do it for the sole purpose of excluding me -- still I don't mind if they do it as long as they explain it to me (so I can understand next time). Of course it's a point of view... more precisely, all that I've been saying here r all personal opinions. But when did I say that I INSIST (with capitals to emphasize)? I only said I found it annoying. U just made an early assumption there, a jumping conclusion. Coz I agree that INSISTING would be very impolite. Especially when u're in a foreign country. Either u can help urself someway or another or ask someone who can help u with that problem. And why was the emphasis on MY presence? As it happens, it just so happens here (at least where I live) to be less rude when a whole group can understand what u're saying. As far as the experience goes, (with ME and MY group, that is), those who don't speak what the majority speaks will one way or another feel a little left out anyway unless someone can b a translator for the person who doesn't speak any of the languages in common (when talking in a group). Whatever language you want to use, when talking in a group, is going to be language u can all agree to use. Other wise I'd be speaking in whatever language I can come up with in this forum other than the agreed upon and expect everyone to understand and reply in whatever language they want to whether I understand it or not, and if I don't I'll ignore that, if I do, I'll reply. Maybe I just like things to be practical or whatever, and don't get me wrong, I like learning a lot of languages, but I don't think when I'm hanging out with my friends having alcohol and getting lightheaded, anyone would bother teaching a lot on a language. Should the conversation is about a language and each other start to teach one another how to say this n that in their languages, fine. But if it's a fast-paced conversation let's say it's about a business or even a heated gossip, with note where everyone gets involved in that conversation, it's too time-wasting in my opinion (if I may have one), to ask every single bit of this and that word or sentence that I don't understand (yet). It'd be just easier / more convenient to speak a language in common. Like my being in a family meeting from my dad's side of the family where they speak the language of the tribe, discussing about a family member's funeral n the will n inheritance, of course I felt annoyed I couldn't understand a thing, but that's my problem coz I don't speak the language in common there, and one way to deal with that was to ask my dad to translate one by one (which was very inconvenient coz it was the middle of a discussion, which wouldn't happen if i had already learnt the language). Anyways, I'm not exactly sure if I formed my words and sentences, and arranged my train of thoughts well enough tonight... whatever excuse that is, that's my problem. Pls excuse-me if in some way I've said anything that might be offensive. Thx I seriously never intended this to be some kind of debate. It's just an opinion... Nite... *yawns... (I seriously need sleep)
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