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Post by juancarlos on Oct 8, 2007 5:27:50 GMT -5
Regardless of what her father's motives were, I think Suu Kyi has demonstrated her steadfastness to peace, non-violence and a free Burma. I mean she could have given up a long time ago, and been with her husband who died of cancer and she couldn't even see him. Why don't you think she herself personally is not a saint?
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Post by haplotype on Oct 8, 2007 5:40:27 GMT -5
It's easy to write fancy rhetoric with her husband's help, but what are her proven capabilities? When we look at other female leaders in the region, from Benazir Bhutto, Indira Ghandi, Corazon Aquino, to Pratibha Patil, they did not accomplish miracles.
Until last week, Wikipedia said her second son Kim Aris attended Georgetown University for one month before dropping out, though I see that has been removed.
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 8, 2007 5:46:10 GMT -5
It's easy to write fancy rhetoric with her husband's help, but what are her proven capabilities? When we look at other female leaders in the region, from Benazir Bhutto, Indira Ghandi, Corazon Aquino, to Pratibha Patil, they did not accomplish miracles. Until last week, Wikipedia said her second son Kim Aris attended Georgetown University for one month before dropping out, though I see that has been removed. Nobody was expecting any miracles from Corazon Aquino. Were you? She inherited a country in desperate shape, and the fact that she left it with a generally peaceful transfer of power and in better economic shape is enough for me. By the way, early in her government, people, including the U.S. State Department, were also questioning Aquino's ability to run the country. And what's your point with Kim Aris?
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Post by miaim on Oct 8, 2007 5:54:05 GMT -5
JC,
Marcos was in power for 20 years - so the number of political killings appears to be constant if not higher now...and where there is political assassinations, there are also arbitrary detentions....
not saying Burma will be better or worse off under democracy - i'm saying i don't know....as i said, it depends on too many unknown variables..... i hope there will be change and it's difficult to imagine things getting worse.... however, it is also possible the situation could become worse....e.g. a civil war...
no, i haven't lived under authoritarianism but i have met many who have - and opinions diverge....not everyone agrees that democracy made their lives better - some of them, often from ex-Yugoslavia, were nostalgic for authoritarian socialism....as i said, it's not as simple as democracy is always better....
peace
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Post by haplotype on Oct 8, 2007 5:54:54 GMT -5
We seem to live in a "free" world where information critical of Suu Kyi is systematically deleted also.
If she becomes leader, she will face a country where generations of elites from junta families have been given access to university educations, government posts. They are the only ones with the qualifications to run the country, and they won't like her -- Suu Kyi's only friends are the Buddhist monks, many of them teenagers, with their own theocracy-oriented agenda.
But will the Western world care? When countries are nominally "democratic", the Western world turns a blind eye. How many people care about Cambodian poverty, now that the Khmer Rouge are gone?
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 8, 2007 6:01:41 GMT -5
JC, Marcos was in power for 20 years - so the number of political killings appears to be constant if not higher now...and where there is political assassinations, there are also arbitrary detentions.... not saying Burma will be better or worse off under democracy - i'm saying i don't know....as i said, it depends on too many unknown variables..... i hope there will be change and it's difficult to imagine things getting worse.... however, it is also possible the situation could become worse....e.g. a civil war... no, i haven't lived under authoritarianism but i have met many who have - and opinions diverge....not everyone agrees that democracy made their lives better - some of them, often from ex-Yugoslavia, were nostalgic for authoritarian socialism....as i said, it's not as simple as democracy is always better.... peace You missed my point that some of the extrajudicial killings under Arroyo's leadership may be attributed to the communist rebels and Muslim separatists. Yes, I have personally lived through an authoritarian government. So, I speak from my own personal and family experience. And I am never nostalgic of it, even in my worst days under democracy. Have you met Filipinos (not from the Marcos regions) who are nostalgic for the Marcos years and martial law? JC
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 8, 2007 6:10:55 GMT -5
We seem to live in a "free" world where information critical of Suu Kyi is systematically deleted also. If she becomes leader, she will face a country where generations of elites from junta families have been given access to university educations, government posts. They are the only ones with the qualifications to run the country, and they won't like her -- Suu Kyi's only friends are the Buddhist monks, many of them teenagers, with their own theocracy-oriented agenda. But will the Western world care? When countries are nominally "democratic", the Western world turns a blind eye. How many people care about Cambodian poverty, now that the Khmer Rouge are gone? Really? Well, all I have to do is start reading Burmese government propaganda and I can find out all the negative things about Suu Kyi. Hmmm, let's see ... they say she's a Western government agent/puppet, that she wants Burmese to suffer economically, and she's a "foreign whore". You make it seem that the only people qualified to run Burma are the current Burmese elite, including the ones that had the ostentatious wedding while their country is starving. Ms. Suu Kyi has people from her own party who can run the government, if only they can get out of jail. There are also Burmese dissidents, including a lawyer friend of mine, educated in the finest universities abroad who can also help run the country. I don't know much about Cambodia, so I can't speak for that country.
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Post by haplotype on Oct 8, 2007 6:27:18 GMT -5
Really? Well, all I have to do is start reading Burmese government propaganda and I can find out all the negative things about Suu Kyi. Hmmm, let's see ... they say she's a Western government agent/puppet, that she wants Burmese to suffer economically, and she's a "foreign whore". Not entirely untrue. She opposed polio vaccinations by foreign aid groups. She wants Westerners to boycott all Burmese goods, which punishes civilians rather than the junta. Historically, boycotts have given authoritarian governments monopoly powers over their economy, effectively enriching them. I don't know why anyone bothers with economic sanctions anymore. You make it seem that the only people qualified to run Burma are the current Burmese elite, including the ones that had the ostentatious wedding while their country is starving. Ms. Suu Kyi has people from her own party who can run the government, if only they can get out of jail. There are also Burmese dissidents, including a lawyer friend of mine, educated in the finest universities abroad who can also help run the country. The experience in Iraq and Afghanistan has shown foreign-based dissidents to be disappointments -- naive, poorly motivated, pampered. After assimilating to Western societies and driving their BMWs, expatriates do not want to be associated with the illiterate, unwashed rabble of their own countries anymore. The dissidents in prison, what effect will prison have on them? Will they have learned criminal tendencies from their fellow inmates? Will they seek revenge against the families of juntas? The USA welcomed a lot of Cuban "political prisoners" during the Mariel boatlifts in 1980, but most of them just turned out to be common criminals.
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 8, 2007 6:42:11 GMT -5
Really? Well, all I have to do is start reading Burmese government propaganda and I can find out all the negative things about Suu Kyi. Hmmm, let's see ... they say she's a Western government agent/puppet, that she wants Burmese to suffer economically, and she's a "foreign whore". Not entirely untrue. She opposed polio vaccinations by foreign aid groups. She wants Westerners to boycott all Burmese goods, which punishes civilians rather than the junta. Historically, boycotts have given authoritarian governments monopoly powers over their economy, effectively enriching them. I don't know why anyone bothers with economic sanctions anymore. You make it seem that the only people qualified to run Burma are the current Burmese elite, including the ones that had the ostentatious wedding while their country is starving. Ms. Suu Kyi has people from her own party who can run the government, if only they can get out of jail. There are also Burmese dissidents, including a lawyer friend of mine, educated in the finest universities abroad who can also help run the country. The experience in Iraq and Afghanistan has shown foreign-based dissidents to be disappointments -- naive, poorly motivated, pampered. After assimilating to Western societies and driving their BMWs, expatriates do not want to be associated with the illiterate, unwashed rabble of their own countries anymore. The dissidents in prison, what effect will prison have on them? Will they have learned criminal tendencies from their fellow inmates? Will they seek revenge against the families of juntas? The USA welcomed a lot of Cuban "political prisoners" during the Mariel boatlifts in 1980, but most of them just turned out to be common criminals. Given that I am able to find negative news on Suu Kyi, your assertions that those are systematically deleted in the "free" world turns out to be grossly false. Suu Kyi opposed foreign aid vaccinations, well does that not prove that she's not a Western puppet? You speak so authoritatively of the Mariel boatlift. Can you provide stats on the percent of them who turned out to be criminals and your sources? Because reading your post, you are implying that at least 50% of them turned out to be common criminals. With regard to economic sanctions, I actually believe that freezing the foreign assets and having travel bans on the Burmese elite would add some sort of pressure on them. Of course, boycott of the China 2008 Genocide Olympics would also help. Oh, and thanks for stereotyping my Burmese friend. Finally, so what do you think we should do about Burma? Any constructive suggestions perhaps?
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Post by haplotype on Oct 8, 2007 7:01:51 GMT -5
Suu Kyi opposed foreign aid vaccinations, well does that not prove that she's not a Western puppet? It proves she is no better than the junta, if she is willing to have crippled children to make a political statement. The ones that didn't end up in prison or getting deported back to Cuba became middle class, according to this. On the other hand, most of them say they have no desire to go back to Cuba even if Castro dies -- not a good sign for foreign-based dissidents. www.canf.org/2005/1in/noticias-de-Cuba/2005-abr-10-mariel-exiles-firmly.htmIt means the elites will strengthen their relationship with China, while the West loses relevance to Burma. I think we should have wide open doors to Burma, to expose their elites and commoners to the wider world. It will also give Westerners a more nuanced understanding of Burma -- not the cartoonish portrayal we have now. Because of their isolation, Burmese people are currently no different from Iranians or Saudis in their blind adherence to Buddhism, with all its sexism and dogma.
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 8, 2007 7:14:57 GMT -5
Suu Kyi opposed foreign aid vaccinations, well does that not prove that she's not a Western puppet? It proves she is no better than the junta, if she is willing to have crippled children to make a political statement. The ones that didn't end up in prison or getting deported back to Cuba became middle class, according to this. On the other hand, most of them say they have no desire to go back to Cuba even if Castro dies -- not a good sign for foreign-based dissidents. www.canf.org/2005/1in/noticias-de-Cuba/2005-abr-10-mariel-exiles-firmly.htmIt means the elites will strengthen their relationship with China, while the West loses relevance to Burma. I think we should have wide open doors to Burma, to expose their elites and commoners to the wider world. It will also give Westerners a more nuanced understanding of Burma -- not the cartoonish portrayal we have now. Because of their isolation, Burmese people are currently no different from Iranians or Saudis in their blind adherence to Buddhism, with all its sexism and dogma. Of course, you avoided issues that I have raised, as follows: 1. You were wrong in asserting that in the "free" countries, negative info on Suu Kyi is systematically deleted, given that I found very quickly negative press on her. 2. You said "most" Mariel boat lift immigrants turned out be common criminals. You never provided me any stats or sources for your assertions. Turns out, only 10% of them had criminal histories/mental problems, according to a congressional study. That is, my friend, not "most". Ergo, being placed in prison for political reasons does NOT necessarily mean one will have learned "criminal tendencies" from fellow prisoners. Now, you're suggesting we should have "wide open doors" for Burmese commoners. How are you supposed to do that when the military junta controls everything? Haven't you heard that they shut down internet connections to the country during the recent weeks?
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Post by miaim on Oct 8, 2007 7:19:29 GMT -5
You missed my point that some of the extrajudicial killings under Arroyo's leadership may be attributed to the communist rebels and Muslim separatists. Yes, I have personally lived through an authoritarian government. So, I speak from my own personal and family experience. And I am never nostalgic of it, even in my worst days under democracy. Have you met Filipinos (not from the Marcos regions) who are nostalgic for the Marcos years and martial law? i didn't miss your point - depending on which figures you believe, political killings by the authorities are much higher now than under Marcos....so even if the rebels and separatists are responsible for *some* of the killings, it's still very high... i'm not denying your own personal experiences - even though i know Filos who don't think things are much better now.... but Burma isn't the Philippines, either... peace
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 8, 2007 7:25:05 GMT -5
You missed my point that some of the extrajudicial killings under Arroyo's leadership may be attributed to the communist rebels and Muslim separatists. Yes, I have personally lived through an authoritarian government. So, I speak from my own personal and family experience. And I am never nostalgic of it, even in my worst days under democracy. Have you met Filipinos (not from the Marcos regions) who are nostalgic for the Marcos years and martial law? i didn't miss your point - depending on which figures you believe, political killings by the authorities are much higher now than under Marcos....so even if the rebels and separatists are responsible for *some* of the killings, it's still very high... i'm not denying your own personal experiences - even though i know Filos who don't think things are much better now.... but Burma isn't the Philippines, either... peace Well, thank goodness that at least we get press on current political killings that you allege were caused by the Arroyo administration. Under Marcos rule, there's a total news blackout so you don't really know the exact figures!!! Oh, and if one questioned Marcos' government on that, their own person and their families would have been in grave danger. Again, you missed my last question which I will repeat ... Have you met Filipinos (not from the Marcos regions) who are nostalgic for the Marcos years and martial law?
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Post by haplotype on Oct 8, 2007 7:35:53 GMT -5
1. You were wrong in asserting that in the "free" countries, negative info on Suu Kyi is systematically deleted, given that I found very quickly negative press on her. All you said was that the Burmese government publishes negative propaganda about her. You haven't shown me Western sources of negative information about Suu Kyi. More importantly, they're not wanting to rebuild a democratic Cuba either. The junta controls everything when Western governments make it impossible for Burmese to have contact with the West, through trade and travel sanctions. They brought the internet back up. I haven't found any English language sources mentioning this, because it seems the "free democracies" don't want you to know. headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20070929-00000042-mai-int
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 8, 2007 8:22:03 GMT -5
1. You were wrong in asserting that in the "free" countries, negative info on Suu Kyi is systematically deleted, given that I found very quickly negative press on her. All you said was that the Burmese government publishes negative propaganda about her. You haven't shown me Western sources of negative information about Suu Kyi. More importantly, they're not wanting to rebuild a democratic Cuba either. The junta controls everything when Western governments make it impossible for Burmese to have contact with the West, through trade and travel sanctions. They brought the internet back up. I haven't found any English language sources mentioning this, because it seems the "free democracies" don't want you to know. headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20070929-00000042-mai-int It doesn't matter where the negative press is coming from on Suu Kyi, The important thing is that I have access to it here in the West - information which you said is being systematically deleted in the West. Most importantly, your assertion on the percentage of Cuban Mariel immigrants who had criminal backgrounds turned out be grossly untrue. How am I supposed to believe what you say now? Which Burmese can travel abroad? Oh right, of course, the military elite. They're the only ones who have money. Oh, I know they have internet up and running again. I've read it on BBC.
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