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Post by betahat on Apr 27, 2009 1:49:34 GMT -5
Yeah, I know it's difficult to rank different civilizations or colonial regimes by which is the worst (like the age old who was worse, Stalin, Hitler or Mao?).
I hear the Belgians have a pretty solid claim to be among the worst colonial powers. They had this weird obsession with collecting hands. As in, you don't meet the rubber quota this month, you can fill it with humans hands instead. I've heard of many different cultures collecting body parts (most famously the heads of your enemies) but collecting large quantities of human hands, as a means of punishment for not fulfilling production quotas, seems particularly insane and needlessly brutal.
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Post by betahat on Apr 27, 2009 16:01:02 GMT -5
BTW, this thread is now officially off-topic, no thanks to me. But not to worry - Pirate versus Knight airs tomorrow night at 10pm PST on Spike. I wonder if they'll get a Somali to be the Pirate's advocate?
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Post by Subuatai on Apr 28, 2009 16:24:42 GMT -5
Pirate would have a gun ffs! ;D
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Post by attilathehun513 on Apr 28, 2009 22:26:52 GMT -5
ah, crap I forgot that today there was an episode on the Pirate vs Knight. oh well, when's the next episode btw?
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Post by betahat on Apr 29, 2009 0:17:21 GMT -5
I tivo'd it, probably gonna watch it tomorrow. It's on Tuesdays at 10pm, though I believe they also broadcast re-runs during the week (last week on Saturday night). Check your local listings (or youtube!). They also show the last episode on the spike website.
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Post by betahat on Apr 29, 2009 20:51:29 GMT -5
Well, I was a little surprised that the Pirate won. I know he had some firearms, but I was unimpressed by the penetration ability of the flintlock pistol and the blunderbuss against plate armor, let alone plate armor over chainmail with a shield in front. I guess the best armor loses to 18th century firearms, like it did historically. They also gave the knight a horse though (in the re-enaction, not in terms of the computer simulation or weapons tests). I would have though that would give a big edge, closing ground quickly. But no lance attack.
Next week should be interesting and a big change - Yakuza versus Italian Mafia. I wonder how they can decide an edge when both sides have firearms? I guess they will test the effectiveness of their "typical" weapons. They have a tommygun for the mafia; I wonder what the Yakuza use(d)?
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Post by attilathehun513 on May 9, 2009 8:13:34 GMT -5
Well, I was a little surprised that the Pirate won. I know he had some firearms, but I was unimpressed by the penetration ability of the flintlock pistol and the blunderbuss against plate armor, let alone plate armor over chainmail with a shield in front. I guess the best armor loses to 18th century firearms, like it did historically. They also gave the knight a horse though (in the re-enaction, not in terms of the computer simulation or weapons tests). I would have though that would give a big edge, closing ground quickly. But no lance attack. Next week should be interesting and a big change - Yakuza versus Italian Mafia. I wonder how they can decide an edge when both sides have firearms? I guess they will test the effectiveness of their "typical" weapons. They have a tommygun for the mafia; I wonder what the Yakuza use(d)? I suppose the battles get more and more modern. I wonder what they will have after that? imo, the ancient/medieval warriors were more interesting than gun-totting 20 th-century gangstas. But I might be in for a surprise. I am guessing it's on the same time as it is usually on eh?
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Post by Subuatai on May 9, 2009 9:04:15 GMT -5
I would have thought it was the Uzi, not the Sten Gun. Well, the episode was rather hilarious to be honest. Yakuza would have won close range hands down IMO, they have quite a fearsome reputation for it. Nonetheless, I bet both the Mafia and the Yakuz are laughing their ass off at this episode Historically it can penetrate, as you mentioned later. Some late medieval armors however were designed to deflect bullets, gorgeous pieces of work too. But even if it doesn't penetrate, it would have winded the crap outta the tin can. Why else did my people historically use maces instead of swords to cloink the tin cans? Besides, cloinking them can keep them alive so we could ransom them for cash later - in many battles Europeans prefered to capture knights alive as well ;D Some serious unrealism in that episode btw: - Tin cans do not use ranged weapons - PERIOD, what's with the xbow? - Pirate would have been seriously injured by that flail, it was a charging attack as well - would have broken his shoulder at the least. - No lance for the tin can, oh well. - Knight is on some serious crack - taking on so many bullets! - Bomb would have sent the tin can into concussion - Pirate never needed to reload (which takes a long time for those early firearms)
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Post by betahat on May 9, 2009 16:01:48 GMT -5
They said the pirate would have 6 or 7 flintlock pistols, so they didn't need to reload that. I wonder where you would keep all those pistols? Never mind where you would keep a bunch of blunderbusses. I think you're right that knights wouldn't have used a crossbow in general, but then most of the time they would be fighting on horseback anyway, wouldn't they.
I was a little surprised that an ice pick and baseball bat were better than nunchucks and a sai, though since they don't really take training and martial arts ability into account (rather just the raw killing power of the weapon) that's probably right. A lot of people complained that the Yakuza didn't use a Katana, which would have been their main weapon (at least based on Kill Bill volume 1!!!). I think I would take a Katana over a baseball bat, even without any training. It seems like the Mafia were all about breaking limbs, whereas the Yakuza were all about removing them!!!
It basically came down to the tommygun being better than the sten, which seems right based on the demonstrations (though if the combatants were outdoors and started at range maybe range/accuracy would be the higher caliber, faster fire rate and larger clip on the tommy gun).
Next week should be even more interesting - Spetsnaz against Green Beret. I'm cheering for the Spetsnaz. I just hope they keep in mind that the producers of the show value damage potential over range and accuracy when selecting weapons.
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Post by Subuatai on May 10, 2009 4:26:29 GMT -5
Katanas are grand blades, I even bought one, and the balance with its handling is amazing. The Japanese definitely knew about swordsmanship. Katana would win - hands down, unless against other blades. Japanese steel was much weaker then mainland blades, the Mongol, European, Korean, Chinese blades were much stronger based on the quality of the steel.
Spetsnaz against Green Beret in an American TV show? I would bet the Green Beret would win against "Commies"...
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Post by betahat on May 14, 2009 13:08:36 GMT -5
Victory Spetsnaz!!! I thought they'd win, if only because the Spetsnaz guys were way cooler than the Green Berets (who kept talking about how intelligent they were - sure guys, that's why you were grunts in the field and not Generals). It was really close though. Apparently the M4 vs. AK74 is one of the oldest debates on the internet, so it's interesting that they punted on that one. The edge basically went to the semi-auto shotgun, which is highly controversial since the Americans also have various semi-auto shotguns that were not tested.
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Post by Hogan on May 14, 2009 21:54:36 GMT -5
How does a Green Beret miss his target at point blank? I don't understand how a highly trained special ops soldier can miss like that... me thinks he wasn't the best rep. for the show. I know they can't use the Delta Force guys but they should have used navy seals instead of green berets...
Anyway I was hoping the Spetsnaz would win.
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Post by betahat on May 15, 2009 0:06:54 GMT -5
The Green Beret guys were loud and Roostery, while the Russians were quiet and Roostery. Since the results this week depended so much on the skill of the individuals (the pistol test, the sniping and the assault rifle test) it might have been interesting to see the relative skills of the participants (perhaps where they ranked on the tests and exams they took during their training) to get some sense of whether they were "typical" of the special forces they represent. I think there is some debate about whether Delta Force or Navy Seals are really "more elite" than Green Berets, and there are debates about how elite different divisions of the Spetsnaz might be. I think the British SAS have a rep for being the best special forces, but that's hard to judge - I'm sure the Israelis, Russians, Americans, and others would have some things to say about that.
Anyway, next week Shaolin Monk versus Maori Warrior. I'll obviously be rooting for Shaolin, especially if they give them some wires so they can step on air.
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Post by Subuatai on May 15, 2009 7:57:43 GMT -5
Surprise surprise, go Spetznaz Coming from an ex-military background in my youth (though not in full-time service) I find this episode rather shocking in terms of weaponry - especially the M4 vs AK74. It's a submachine guns (made for close quarters combat such as urban environments in the similation) VS assault rifles (made for open fields and natural environments). Even though the Australian Army uses a modified Austrian rifle (Steyr), many soldiers especially special forces either SAS, 4RAR or TRG have also fired varieties of foreign weaponry. Everyone I met, not just Australian soldiers, but Singaporean and British - admitted that American rifle weaponry historically could not simply match up the high standards of the German or Russian weaponry. If it was an M16 VS AK74 battle, AK would win hands down. The M4 is the submachine gun variant of the M16 family of assault rifles... with a history of shocking problems. The M16A1 continually jammed in full-automatic fire and instead of fixing the problem they removed full-auto from the A1 and used 3-round burst fire with the A2 during Vietnam. The M16 family was also less durable then the AK family and even the A2 was very easy to jam. Only strength it had was its accuracy. The AK47 was sometimes deemed as the 'best assault rifle ever made', Only weakness it had was its safety switch (which is simply too big and hence not practical for covert ops), as well as questionable accuracy after the first round. Nonetheless, the AK74 rifles which were not mass exported was durable and much more reliable then the M16 family. Ne ways Shaolin Monk VS Maori Warrior? I love the Maori people and Aotearoa, so my vote goes biasly to them. Besides, the Shaolin Monk weren't warriors, they were... MONKS! Heh
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Post by Groink on May 15, 2009 11:23:37 GMT -5
^
The M4 is not a submachine gun. It is a carbine as it uses a rifle cartridge and not a pistol cartridge.
Dunno if the AK would win "hands down". Guess it depends on what criteria you were judging them on. Bash someone in the head, drop it in the mud, and then fire 30 rounds out of it or in field stripping exercises, then I think the AK definitely wins. Ease of use and ranged accuracy would probably go to the M4. Both use a 5.45mm cartridge, so ballistics characteristics should be about the same.
FWIW, I've never fired an AK/SKS series rifle. I have fired an M4-ish type rifle (Bushmaster XM-something something). It was light and easy to fire (repeatedly), although it did make you feel like, geez, would it knock down anything if I hit it?
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