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Post by Ganbare! on Nov 17, 2009 10:41:01 GMT -5
Found a very interesting article about immigrants going back to their country for successful careers although the figures are a little sketchy it was kind of unheard of in the History of immigration. www.businessweek.com/technology/content/feb2009/tc20090228_990934.htmBoth the native-born and the government seem to have forgotten that the US would be nothing if not for the immigration of skilled labour, no Atomic bomb, no information technology domination etc Yet the government is trying to lower it and the majority of public opinion agrees (in 2006, the Center for Immigration Studies released a poll that found 68% of Americans said US immigration levels are too high, and just 2% said they are too low) ? Do you think the US still is the land of opportunities or has it only become one of them or is it not anymore?
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Post by penguinopolipitese on Nov 18, 2009 9:15:39 GMT -5
When US companies are outsourcing manufacturing to china and tech support to india, no wonder people are going back. That's where the damn jobs are.
Take walmart for instance. The great american store which sells like 99% of it's goods made in china and it's employees minimum wage. In my opinion a store with practices like that is a worse enemy than any terrorist. It doesn't give a s*** about americans or anyone. It only cares about making money. There used to be the old saying "buy american". The meaning is that by buying stuff manufactured in the US you're helping support the US economy and by extension, yourself.
I think the US has become a nation that ran out of money but keeps spending like a tycoon. I think it's a nation that needs to get a hold of itself and find ways to provide goods and services the world needs... look at german engineering and japanese electronics. I'm not sure what the US is known for these days except causing wars.
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cm
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Post by cm on Nov 18, 2009 17:55:32 GMT -5
The United States is still the world leader in technological innovation, and is still the leader in importing the brightest minds even though we may not necessarily be producing them. The US culture has a love for the failure who picks himself up. We embrace the story of the underdog and of those who think outside of the box. That's why most of the world's research is still produced here.
While nations like Japan are indeed more modern in regards to everyday settings, they still lack a culture that embraces innovation and thinking outside the box. I listened to a story about China on NPR in regards to their challenge to balance critical thinking without having students rile against the dictatorship. So in regards to China, they will not be the innovators that the US is until they end censorship and embrace democracy. India is a democracy, but their Caste culture still creates barriers that prevents potentially talented individuals from moving away from their preordained niche in life.
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Post by Ganbare! on Nov 18, 2009 22:07:26 GMT -5
So what you call American 'underdog culture' is the reason, the US leads world technological innovation? The rise of the US as superpower is mere coincidental, if the Euros didn't trying to rip themselves out the US would not be holding 80% of gold reserves in 1945 and impose the dollar as international currency. If it wasn't for the Nazis, there would be no Jewish scientists emigration meaning no A-Bomb nor Woody Allen films . So, no your 'hard working ethic' is not responsible for attracting talents, democracy is... Is that why Japan is tailing the US in numbers of patents granted this year (190k vs 200k), with a population 2.5 times smaller ? Japanese is the most innovating people this Earth ever born, there is not one country in this world that is not impressed by their soft power and industrial design (and that includes former WW2 Asian belligerents whether they want to admit or not, heck they even copied them) Chinese and Indian ethnics are responsible for half of the patents filled in the US, what's going to happen when in a couple of decades the brain drain trend ends (cf article), the US will probably become the next Europe, low technical innovation, aging population... ? Americans are NOT critical enough when it comes to their OWN model of society and politics, that's why, the US are fated to decline while some other superpower take your place before the turn of the century, that's certain.
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Post by jefe on Nov 21, 2009 13:10:31 GMT -5
So the USA is a land of the opportunity for the not yet assimilated and can look at the society from the outside.
Once you get assimilated, then you suddenly become blind to everything.
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Shock
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Post by Shock on Nov 25, 2009 15:39:41 GMT -5
If you are Mexican, America is the land of opportunities.
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Post by Ganbare! on Nov 25, 2009 18:41:28 GMT -5
The US is no longer the eldorado it used to be, even for Mexicans, a large middle class is starting to appear and countless MNC have set up shops there and are recruiting local talents or workers.
Everytime, I meet overseas American expats, they starts to brag about how their country is far more advanced than the rest of the world from a socio-economical standpoint but at the end of the day they have left it and sometimes for good. It's just too hard for them to admit they'd rather live in foreign developed nations because their model of society and government is starting to show their limits.
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Yingy
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Snozzberries? Who ever heard of a snozzberry?
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Post by Yingy on Nov 25, 2009 21:37:43 GMT -5
^ never boosted about how much more awesome to the max States are. Probably older or mid west Americans yes for sure but younger city folk that were stuck in the Bush years probably not. It took Bush to make Americans feel ashamed of their country, not the Palin followers though they are America f*ck yeah all the way pistols in the air, bang bang.
Unemployment rate is at a all time low in the States so I don't think the States now is the land of opportunity, maybe so if you have lots and lots of money.
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palavore
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I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold posts.
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Post by palavore on Dec 12, 2009 16:59:21 GMT -5
Now this is my kind of talk! I wish I hadn't missed this thread. The United States is still the world leader in technological innovation, and is still the leader in importing the brightest minds even though we may not necessarily be producing them. The US culture has a love for the failure who picks himself up. We embrace the story of the underdog and of those who think outside of the box. That's why most of the world's research is still produced here. The U.S. doesn't embrace underdogs so much as it embraces superstars. Compare these two maps for example. Innovation in a Spike WorldStar Scientists in a Spiky WorldWhat this shows is not a mighty American lead in innovation, but more of a culture of innovation that relies more on leaders and individuals rather than groups. Of course, this conforms perfectly to the (Protestant) American work ethic of having greater personal responsibility with greater rewards. It is American hyper-individualism vs Japanese paternalistic collectivism. No side shows any great lead. However, importing the world's superstar scientists might not be sustainable for the U.S. in the long run as more developing economies begin to emerge and reunite with their great minds. Europe might have it's own blend of innovation (which I have no words to describe). Perhaps, the middle ground between East and West. I don't know. I'm a regular consumer of Japanese culture and technology. Many times I ask myself why the U.S. can't be this creative and forward thinking. And in some areas I'm glad we haven't gotten so ahead of ourselves as to appear bizarre--as the Japanese sometimes do...
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cm
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Post by cm on Dec 16, 2009 19:22:00 GMT -5
www.guardian.co.uk/education/datablog/2009/oct/08/top-100-universities-worldHere's one list of the top 100 universities in the world (I would use US News and Report as a better list, but didn't because of possible but unlikely bias). Japan isn't ranked until number 22. Otherwise, 6 out of the top 10 colleges in the world are located in the United States. 13 out of the top 20 universities are in the United States.
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palavore
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I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold posts.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
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Post by palavore on Dec 17, 2009 13:07:47 GMT -5
www.guardian.co.uk/education/datablog/2009/oct/08/top-100-universities-worldHere's one list of the top 100 universities in the world (I would use US News and Report as a better list, but didn't because of possible but unlikely bias). Japan isn't ranked until number 22. Otherwise, 6 out of the top 10 colleges in the world are located in the United States. 13 out of the top 20 universities are in the United States. You skipped a step. How is having a few universities being ranked by Western papers proof of better innovation overall? Even with that, how can that these universities with their mix of foreign students and faculty be an accurate representation of the ground on which they sit. There is innovation in the private sector and on the local level which contributes to overall atmosphere. Trying to track and equate universities with innovation is the same mindset as tracking superstars. You can have the best players and the best coaches yet still lose at the Olympics--as the U.S. often does. It's like the U.S. health care system. They can offer you the best services (for a price), but so many U.S. citizens lack access to the basic services that it puts the U.S. in an embarrassing position in the developed world. The U.S. is in a similar position with its education system. So to recap: - Rankings do not equal innovation - A few good innovators cannot innovate for everybody - There were some other good points that I forgot about/ haven't innovated yet...
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Post by betahat on Dec 17, 2009 17:28:28 GMT -5
The Shanghai university rankings make the US look even better: www.arwu.org/Obviously you can't equate universities with innovation. But it is hardly a coincidence that two of the top five universities on that list - Berkeley and Stanford, are within mintues of Sillicon Valley, indisputably the global center for innovation on the internet. Palaver's map is kind of messed up - what the heck is it they are inventing in what looks like Moscow that exceeds Intel, AMD, Google, Yahoo, Sun Microsystems, etc. etc.? I wouldn't downplay the contributions of Japan and the rest of the world, or the fact that even in the internet/technology sector, for which the US was indisputably the center and prime innovator, benefitted from global contributions - increasingly foreign scientists, engineers and computer programmers are contributing either in the US or in offshoring research facilities in their home countries (though the US entrepreneurial and corporate management expertise is still runnign the show). But I can't really accept the conclusion of Palaver's map, just based on my (however preliminary) reading of the evidence, and I can't deny that the US is still the global center for innovation in many sectors, even if other countries are catching up. This is partly a function of size - all of Europe combined looks pretty impressive and has the same population - and partly the result of a system that, for all its flaws, does seem to encourage risk-taking and entrepreneurship more than others with some spectacular results. Every time I stand up and defend Canada's welfare state, I still have to acknowledge that I'm here in the US because even the most elite Canadian university couldn't really offer the same level of academe...
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palavore
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I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold posts.
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Post by palavore on Dec 17, 2009 18:18:16 GMT -5
My sparring partner is back. Welcome. But I can't really accept the conclusion of Palaver's map, just based on my (however preliminary) reading of the evidence, and I can't deny that the US is still the global center for innovation in many sectors, even if other countries are catching up. This is partly a function of size - all of Europe combined looks pretty impressive and has the same population - and partly the result of a system that, for all its flaws, does seem to encourage risk-taking and entrepreneurship more than others with some spectacular results. The map is based on patent analysis. I was challenging the statement that the U.S. innovates better or faster because of inherent cultural limitations within other countries. Palaver's map is kind of messed up - what the heck is it they are inventing in what looks like Moscow that exceeds Intel, AMD, Google, Yahoo, Sun Microsystems, etc. etc.? Perpetual motion machines. ;D It probably has to do with weapons, aerospace, and forms of intellectual property not related to technology. Here is another patent analysis map. This one charts trajectory (I'm not seeing Moscow ). Anywho, got to love these bubble maps. Ever since they were introduced at TED... Some Asian cities are off the chart (not visible on chart) because of their growth (20%). And some of the big unnamed bubbles belong to Japan and Korea.
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Post by betahat on Dec 17, 2009 19:18:06 GMT -5
I don't think raw patent counts are the best way to go, especially since different countries have different patent laws. Does the index adjust for patent citations or something like that? I'm a little surprised that Russia is still so much at the frontier for innovation in weapons and aerospace, but it looks like they sell more weapons than the UK, France and China combined, so I guess they are probably still competing on price and quality. I suppose it's still their comparative advantage industry for export after oil. I wonder whether arms innovation should count as progress or a good thing, or whether Adorno was right that there is “no universal history leads from savagery to humanitarianism, but there is one leading from the slingshot to the megaton bomb.”
I buy the second graph more, but then I agree with you completely about growth rates (vs. levels). I'm not sure whether he US will still have a lead by the end of this century...
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cm
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Post by cm on Dec 17, 2009 23:25:48 GMT -5
www.guardian.co.uk/education/datablog/2009/oct/08/top-100-universities-worldHere's one list of the top 100 universities in the world (I would use US News and Report as a better list, but didn't because of possible but unlikely bias). Japan isn't ranked until number 22. Otherwise, 6 out of the top 10 colleges in the world are located in the United States. 13 out of the top 20 universities are in the United States. You skipped a step. How is having a few universities being ranked by Western papers proof of better innovation overall? Even with that, how can that these universities with their mix of foreign students and faculty be an accurate representation of the ground on which they sit. There is innovation in the private sector and on the local level which contributes to overall atmosphere. Trying to track and equate universities with innovation is the same mindset as tracking superstars. You can have the best players and the best coaches yet still lose at the Olympics--as the U.S. often does. It's like the U.S. health care system. They can offer you the best services (for a price), but so many U.S. citizens lack access to the basic services that it puts the U.S. in an embarrassing position in the developed world. The U.S. is in a similar position with its education system. So to recap: - Rankings do not equal innovation - A few good innovators cannot innovate for everybody - There were some other good points that I forgot about/ haven't innovated yet... Universities produce the basic research that private enterprise needs to truly innovate. Without university research, R and D for private enterprise would be too expensive, and prevent many companies form even existing. Here's a list of the top pharmaceutical companies in the world pharmexec.findpharma.com/pharmexec/data/articlestandard/pharmexec/272006/354138/article.pdf 6 out of the top 10 are located in the United States with the rest located in Europe. Top 100 Software companies www.softwaretop100.org/software-top-100/global-software-top-100-edition-2009again with most of the top 10 located in the US Of course these are just an example of two sectors, but they are very important ones.
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