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Post by jefe on Dec 16, 2009 13:49:28 GMT -5
Most native Cantonese speakers that grew up in places like Hong Kong and Canton can speak/understand Mandarin. I would say that over 95% of the Cantonese-speaking people who grew up in Canton (Guangzhou) can speak Mandarin, but only about 35% of the Cantonese speaking people in HK speak much Mandarin. Still, that is more than about 15 years ago, when only about 20% of the people in HK could speak Mandarin.
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Post by jefe on Dec 16, 2009 13:59:45 GMT -5
I've noticed here on EAN that it seems that in the US people would ask "What are you?" about ethnicity, which is new to me. Here in Norway people only ask about country of origin. Is it bad etiquette in the US to ask about country of origin? Yes, it is not only considered bad etiquette (as it is not polite to call people in the USA a foreigner, or even suggest it, unless you know otherwise), in some cases it is downright illegal even to ask the question. In those cases in which it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of national origin (eg, employment, residence, education, medical care, etc.) where national origin is not relevant to the inherent requirement of the job, residence, education, etc. then the receiver of that question might have the right to sue the party that is doing the asking, esp. if any change in status resulted after the interchange (eg, getting fired, not called back for a 2nd interview, being evicted, refused admission to a school, etc.) even if the reason had nothing to do with the country of origin. Yes, you have to be VERY VERY careful about asking about one's country of origin in the USA. On the other hand, an open-ended question like "What are you?" could not possibly be construed to be inherently or directly discriminatory, even if the intention had discriminatory elements.
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Post by Ganbare! on Dec 16, 2009 14:15:59 GMT -5
From my experience here in Norway, a lot of non-western immigrants ask me quickly and directly about my background. I think it it's a way for us to connect, since we have the non-western background and culture in common. No matter if they're Asian, Black or Middle Eastern, we all find common ground when it comes to being minorities and experiencing a type of culture and way of life in Norway that is very different from our non-western countries. Norwegians are more often shy of asking about my background, it only comes up when we are talking about a related topic. If I don't bring it up myself, they would think that I don't identify with my non-Norwegian background, and want to be referred to as just Norwegian. I've noticed here on EAN that it seems that in the US people would ask "What are you?" about ethnicity, which is new to me. Here in Norway people only ask about country of origin. Is it bad etiquette in the US to ask about country of origin? I can relate to this both because of my ethnic background and my life between two continents.
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Post by toyomansi on Dec 16, 2009 18:31:25 GMT -5
I guess the situation is very different in multiracial countries like the US, compared to monoracial European countries. European countries like Norway consist mostly of one native ethnicity, and other ethnicities are usually 1st or 2nd generation immigrants with still strong connection to their country of origin. While in the US you can't call the white people natives, so everyone there were immigrants/foreigners at some point, even when it was hundreds of years ago (even the Native Americans thousands of years ago, right?)... So the term "American" can mean any race, while terms like "Norwegian" mostly refer to the Norwegian ethnicity. I think maybe many people in the US don't even know which country/countries they originated from, so they just identify as a race, rather than an ethnicity. In monoracial countries, we almost never use the word "race" but rather "ethnicity" or country of origin.
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Post by toyomansi on Dec 16, 2009 18:43:21 GMT -5
Even if you speak perfect Norwegian with a standard Norwegian accent? Yes, because if a person looks very different from the Norwegian ethnicity, the person most likely has a foreign background (even if 2nd generation immigrant, born and raised here). Some people have said that because of my excellent Norwegian they thought I was an adoptee. (Should that maybe mean that if I have non-Norwegian parents, they would only teach me to speak broken Norwegian? lol...)
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Post by milkman's baby on Dec 16, 2009 23:43:32 GMT -5
Even if you speak perfect Norwegian with a standard Norwegian accent? Yes, because if a person looks very different from the Norwegian ethnicity, the person most likely has a foreign background (even if 2nd generation immigrant, born and raised here). Some people have said that because of my excellent Norwegian they thought I was an adoptee. (Should that maybe mean that if I have non-Norwegian parents, they would only teach me to speak broken Norwegian? lol...) If you are born and raised there, you are Norwegian. Not ethnically perhaps, but I don't care whether the person is an ethnic Persian, a Jew, or Chinese - they are Norwegian as long as they have Norwegian citizenship and if they practice Norwegian culture. End of story. So if the person speaks standard Norwegian with a clear Norwegian accent, there is simply no logical reason not to assume they are from any other country than Norway (especially since Norwegian isn't a particularly global language that many people outside Norway would bother teaching their kids). But I guess those people obviously weren't paying attention to your accent. They must've been fixated on your physical looks. I must say of all the dumb questions I've gotten about my ethnicity from strangers, no one has ever questioned my American heritage. Wait, I take that back. One guy did. And he was an East Indian immigrant who spoke terrible English let alone hardly understood it. My guess is that he couldn't distinguish what a typical American sounds like speaking English compared to a foreigner speaking English. I don't blame him, but it was still annoying.
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Post by toyomansi on Dec 17, 2009 5:24:23 GMT -5
Of course, all "foreigners" here are acknowledged as Norwegian, and often specified more by terms like Norwegian Pakistani, Norwegian Somali, Norwegian Vietnamese and so on. So people know that I'm Norwegian, but the reason why they ask about my background is because it makes me more interesting than the ethnic Norwegian who have all of their roots in Norway. When knowing about my Filipino background, many people praise Filipinos and mention that they know many nice people who are Filipino. So that makes me happy and proud of being "more" than only Norwegian.
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Post by jefe on Dec 17, 2009 13:01:13 GMT -5
If you are born and raised there, you are Norwegian. Not ethnically perhaps, but I don't care whether the person is an ethnic Persian, a Jew, or Chinese - they are Norwegian as long as they have Norwegian citizenship and if they practice Norwegian culture. End of story. So if the person speaks standard Norwegian with a clear Norwegian accent, there is simply no logical reason not to assume they are from any other country than Norway (especially since Norwegian isn't a particularly global language that many people outside Norway would bother teaching their kids). But I guess those people obviously weren't paying attention to your accent. They must've been fixated on your physical looks. I must say of all the dumb questions I've gotten about my ethnicity from strangers, no one has ever questioned my American heritage. That reflects a difference between the USA and many other countries. 1. There are at least 3 types of Norwegian - - Norwegian the nationality (or citizenship) - Norwegian the ethnicity (which usually involves some aspect of lineal descent, but not necessarily) - Norwegian the culture (which may include language) In general, there is no American the ethnicity. However, many Americans mark their ethnicity as "American" on census forms, presumably those that do not identify which any lineal descent from another ethnic group. Most of them are primarily mixed NW European descent, but a few are black or part black. And most have had the bulk of their ancestors in the USA for at least 4-5 generations. 2. In some countries, having a citizenship and practising a culture may still not be the main determining factors in determining if someone is entitled to the label. To an American (and I am one, in case you were wondering), citizenship and cultural affiliation are the determining factors to be labelled American, but this does not apply in most countries, particularly those that pay a lot more attention to lineal descent and race. I am not saying that it is *right*, but it may be the cultural norm in other places. In years past, these were not the only determining factors to be labelled American -- race was also a factor. But it is becoming less a factor in younger generations and the label is used is one of ethnicity more than nationality.
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Post by milkman's baby on Dec 17, 2009 15:03:20 GMT -5
If you are born and raised there, you are Norwegian. Not ethnically perhaps, but I don't care whether the person is an ethnic Persian, a Jew, or Chinese - they are Norwegian as long as they have Norwegian citizenship and if they practice Norwegian culture. End of story. So if the person speaks standard Norwegian with a clear Norwegian accent, there is simply no logical reason not to assume they are from any other country than Norway (especially since Norwegian isn't a particularly global language that many people outside Norway would bother teaching their kids). But I guess those people obviously weren't paying attention to your accent. They must've been fixated on your physical looks. I must say of all the dumb questions I've gotten about my ethnicity from strangers, no one has ever questioned my American heritage. That reflects a difference between the USA and many other countries. 1. There are at least 3 types of Norwegian - - Norwegian the nationality (or citizenship) - Norwegian the ethnicity (which usually involves some aspect of lineal descent, but not necessarily) - Norwegian the culture (which may include language) In general, there is no American the ethnicity. However, many Americans mark their ethnicity as "American" on census forms, presumably those that do not identify which any lineal descent from another ethnic group. Most of them are primarily mixed NW European descent, but a few are black or part black. And most have had the bulk of their ancestors in the USA for at least 4-5 generations. 2. In some countries, having a citizenship and practising a culture may still not be the main determining factors in determining if someone is entitled to the label. To an American (and I am one, in case you were wondering), citizenship and cultural affiliation are the determining factors to be labelled American, but this does not apply in most countries, particularly those that pay a lot more attention to lineal descent and race. I am not saying that it is *right*, but it may be the cultural norm in other places. In years past, these were not the only determining factors to be labelled American -- race was also a factor. But it is becoming less a factor in younger generations and the label is used is one of ethnicity more than nationality. I am aware of the strong presence ethnicity and race play in many countries and their ability to determine whether the person could be considered a "member" of that country. Many mixed race, especially half black, children in homogeneous (and very racist) nations like South Korea and Japan face this problem. In fact, I believe the small but very evident community of ethnic Chinese living in South Korea are presently still not considered South Korean citizens even if they were born and raised there. Even if the problem wasn't rooted so much out of racism like the case of South Korea and Japan, it is still incorrect for a Norwegian not to refer to a non-ethnic Norwegian as anything other than Norwegian if we're speaking in a cultural and domicile context. If I were to be referencing work from an ethnic Chinese who was born and raised and still is a citizen of Norway, for instance, I would refer to them as "a Norwegian scientist." Their Chinese background has little to no relevance in contexts as such.
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