palavore
Full Member
I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold posts.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Posts: 298
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Post by palavore on Mar 29, 2010 19:13:04 GMT -5
^ If I were a member of Congress, I would have voted Nay on this bill. I thought that was obvious. A few nay votes from those who see the most need for reform could have put the bill right. BTW, that was an optimistic position at the time, that a more progressive bill would come out the conference committee. Right now, I'm also being an optimist because you see, most people don't think things can get any worse. I do, because we can do worse than the status quo--we've been doing it for years. I'm surprised you've been unaware of the liberal skeptics out there. Marcia Angell is prominent among them, including activists for women's rights. Rachel Maddox was also a strong critic of the senate bill wondering, what shadow opposition are the Democrats compromising with? Also, I have no personal hatred for insurance companies. (This Marxist thing again. ) Insurance profits are acceptable if a) the market is competitive b) those profits don't contribute significantly to costs c) insurance companies function effectively as gatekeepers in controlling costs in other areas of the health care system. The health insurance market in Japan, Switzerland, and Germany do these things much better--and not on their own. It took far more interventionist measures to reach these outcomes--and they probably could've done away with private insurance entirely while they were at it. I will reaffirm again that I'm no enemy of markets. I will not however, write glowing praises for corrupt arrangements which goes beyond health care and into the integrity of our government--another area of reform. Those arrangements were not a necessary evil of reform. We can disagree on that point. Let's leave it at that. Crap, Beta. Don't you get tired? This is the longest we've been back and forth. I've been having one of these discussions every month since health care reform debate started. I guess once this debate winds down, we can refuel on the energy debate--or Cap 'n Trade. That load of greenwashing... an enemy to the revolution!
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Post by betahat on Apr 8, 2010 14:59:09 GMT -5
OK, I'll let you have the last word on health care. I do have to state for the record that the bill passed the house 219-212, with 34 democrats voting against - all of them conservative democrats from Republican leaning districts or tough re-election battles (and it would have been more without the Stupak amendment preventing funding for most abortions) - and that the only two democrats who initially opposed it from the left (Kucinich and Massa) changed their minds or were dismissed for harassing male staffers before the vote.
Energy debate? Bring it on! I suppose that, following through on your approach to healthcare, you would disagree with a bill that reduced greenhouse gas emissions by, say, 10%, especially if passing it required a compromise whereby the government and/or consumers pay most of the costs rather than corporations?
Wouldn't life be easier if the United States was run by a benign dicatorship of policy wonks, scientists and economists rather than relatively uninformed politicians who have to campaign and win votes and raise money in a relatively apathetic, conservative and ignorant country?
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Post by Ganbare! on Apr 8, 2010 18:00:51 GMT -5
Exactly the dictatorship of having to campaign during their whole term of office prevents stable and progressive policy-making. South Korea and Taiwan were authoritarian states until the 80's and it sure worked for them.
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Post by Ganbare! on Apr 20, 2010 22:05:49 GMT -5
It's sad people think about the issue only in terms of money, health care for millions has no value. I doubt any of you two ever experienced the pain of not consulting a physician because you couldn't afford it.
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Post by admin on Apr 20, 2010 22:07:36 GMT -5
It's sad people think about the issue only in terms of money, health care for millions has no value. I doubt any of you ever experienced the pain of not consulting a physician because you couldn't afford it. You really don't know jack s*** about the people here - continue on with your assumptions, they won't make you any smarter.
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Post by Ganbare! on Apr 20, 2010 22:14:27 GMT -5
You're the one making assumptions. Do you even know who I was referring to on this thread where only 4 different members posted?
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Post by admin on Apr 20, 2010 22:55:21 GMT -5
I didn't assume - I took your words at face value. Own up to your smug attitude, you'll understand yourself better, and soon after, the world.
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Post by Ganbare! on Apr 21, 2010 0:11:20 GMT -5
they won't make you any smarter. And you're accusing me of being aggressive?
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Papa Alpha
Junior Member
Not all those who wander are lost
1/4 pirate, 1/4 ninja, 1/4 cowboy, 1/4 rockstar
Posts: 102
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Post by Papa Alpha on Apr 21, 2010 0:28:43 GMT -5
It's sad people think about the issue only in terms of money, health care for millions has no value. I doubt any of you two ever experienced the pain of not consulting a physician because you couldn't afford it. I weathered out a brown recluse bite, and all my friends were trying to drag me to the hospital. Gave me a fever so bad I was hallucinating. Oh yeah, gots ta have that venom.
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Post by betahat on Apr 21, 2010 17:54:44 GMT -5
^I doubt any of you two ever experienced the pain of not consulting a physician because you couldn't afford it.
That's true, because I live in Canada. Although I have avoided consulting physicians here in the US because even with insurance the co-pays are so high - my wife managed to drag me in for an x-ray once, but I have a few health issues that I have left untreated because I don't want to pay for them. Nothing life-threatening of course. Can't speak for Palavore.
Of course, that's no reason to avoid talking about money, efficiency, etc. Ultimately the sustainability of an equitable health care system depends on those considerations too, as I'm sure you would agree.
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palavore
Full Member
I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold posts.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Posts: 298
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Post by palavore on Apr 21, 2010 20:53:02 GMT -5
^I doubt any of you two ever experienced the pain of not consulting a physician because you couldn't afford it. That's true, because I live in Canada. Although I have avoided consulting physicians here in the US because even with insurance the co-pays are so high - my wife managed to drag me in for an x-ray once, but I have a few health issues that I have left untreated because I don't want to pay for them. Nothing life-threatening of course. Can't speak for Palavore. Every time I wanted health care, I would run my own specimen through the analyzer. Or have someone swab my throat and plate it up myself. I even do a semen count regularly just to keep tabs on my swimming team. (I'm kidding about the semen count) For men though, money isn't so much the issue as is their stubbornness. Enduring pain and "working it off" is the masculine philosophy (or Philistinism) to health care. Although their stubbornness might reward them regarding prostate cancer. It's hard to say not to get your prostate checked. But there are studies suggesting that prostate cancer is over-diagnosed and that treating otherwise benign tumors creates more pain and suffering for male patient population. Same goes for tonsillectomies and cataract surgery where the number of procedures performed on the local population increases with the number of physicians. It has not so much to do with increased access to a physician or change in population health, but the competitive incentive to diagnose and therefore over-diagnose. If you want to understand how a system works, you first identify the incentives.
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miss feli
Full Member
here kitty, kitty!
Posts: 315
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Post by miss feli on May 9, 2010 9:04:48 GMT -5
It's sad people think about the issue only in terms of money, health care for millions has no value. I doubt any of you two ever experienced the pain of not consulting a physician because you couldn't afford it. Why was an admin being so aggressive over a comment? I don't know if that's exactly appropriate behaviour from an admin? Leading on ... I haven't been on here for a while, since I started in public health education, and now I'm about to graduate. I certainly learned a lot about the health care system and the people who really need health care. The lot is growing that use places like Planned Parenthood and we aren't getting any more funding to do more services. Almost all of services done there are GP stuff, too -- there's been a drastic increase in patients who are unemployed and cannot afford to go to a hospital. People who DON'T go to the GP, and many without insurance don't, end up at the emergency room and end up bankrupt. I had an ER visit and the ambulance alone cost me $1000 to go right down the street. The bill ended up being over $10,000 with insurance even though all I had was cheap medicine and some simple non-blood tests. There was no blood test, no expensive medicine, no surgery and it cost that much. That is ridiculous. My parents are off in other parts of the world and are able to get a CT scan for $500, which would cost over $5000 here. Costs are over-inflated. As well, public hospitals here in the US are being overloaded. The hospitals are getting major cuts, and the people are getting the end of the stick. Some of these people had been previously denied health insurance -- which has been fixed -- because they had previous "issues." I find that the health care reform was not what I wanted, or expected, but it's definitely a start.
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