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Post by ethan9273 on Aug 10, 2007 12:42:16 GMT -5
Hi everyone, brand spanking new here. Long time reader, first time poster.
Wanted some of your input on a topic I've been thinking about. I'm chinese, born and raised half in Taipei half in the States (born in Oak Ridge,TN of all places). Live in LA. I think I'm different than most asian american's in CA in that I don't identify myself as a "asian american" but simply chinese. However, I speak fluent english and I am very in tune with american pop culture. That said, I think the main reason I'm not like that is because culturally, my thoughts and philosophies are very chinese.
That said, I'm currently with a white g/f that I'm seriously considering a future with. She's is very comfortable with me, and has been suprisingly comfortable with all the cultural differences that I have. (She's dated chinese guys in the past)
I think that for the most part, in the states, this type of situation is relatively rare, an asian guy that is "culturally" asian with a white girlfriend.
So, my main question is, if I were to have kids, I would consider bringing them to Asia (specifically China/Taiwan). They would probably spend some summers in the states as well. I wanted your input as to what type of difficulties (identity etc) they would face over there. That said, I know most of you have an american perspective of being Euroasian, but this is the only resource I have now...
On a side note, although definitely not to the same degree, I can relate to some of these identity issues you guys face. When I'm in the states, everyone views me as chinese. In taiwan, everyone says I'm an American. In China, they say I act Taiwanese....go figure.
Appreciate any insights you guys can offer. Thx
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Post by avax on Aug 10, 2007 13:17:31 GMT -5
I notice people identify most with the places of their childhood, when things aren't as clearly cognizant and when it's fuzzy with nostalgia. When we start to think rationally, the sentimental falls away and so does whatever kindlings of patriotism or affiliation. Your kids will likely be rooted in the idea that they're american, first and foremost. But will be third generation immigrants (assuming your parents immigrated) through you, and experience not just immigrant dissociations or contradictions, they'll also realize they're not completely asian.
I honestly don't see any difficulties if they're raised with the knowledge that mum and dad ARE different. I know others may beg to differ - that race doesn't matter. I disagree. Children will notice differences and if they don't, their classmates will. If they don't have answers, they'll search for them. If they don't search for them, it builds up and the questions will come back later.
The "asian-american" thing seems more to me a verbal acknowledgment that you, as an asian, have every access to american rights and responsibilities. It recognizes dual identities. I think the hyphenation can get pretty ridiculous sometimes though or redundant. But your children might favour it over "eurasian".
This is from your perspective but you haven't spoken about your girlfriend's intentions of maybe bringing them back to her homeland. I'm assuming she doesn't have family outside of the US. If she does, there may be an imbalance or desire (at least a curiosity) for their "white" side, no matter how much you expose them to their asian roots. They'll likely form romantic and fluffy notions about it in contrast to their firsthand experience of asia. I also don't see anything wrong with this. A bit disillusioned and they may be in for a rude awakening later in life but we all have to learn some time.
Your gf may be laidback now but I think you should discuss with her exactly what she thinks. She may feel a bit left out when she realizes she cannot speak the language as well as you or the kids, and when you're married it's no longer about the both of you - there's lots of family and acceptance to consider.
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Post by ladystacey on Aug 10, 2007 13:24:11 GMT -5
I'm from L.A and I can see what you mean but overall it depends because I was surrounded but nothing but Taiwanese or Chinese immigrants from Taiwan or China so they pretty much all held onto their culture and beliefs,etc. Their kids were kinda like half and half they still hold on to a lot of traditions because their mom would tear them a new one if they didn't but I can see how the 3rd generation would be different. I grew up in Monterey Park and that is like the new Chinatown in some ways it feels like Taipei. I also was right next door to East L.A so I have this weird connection to the Latino culture ;D A lot of my friends that were asian hated Monterey Park because to them it felt like it was to asian and they lived in China or something while for me I was used to it and didn't mind. I lived in Taipei on and off a few years and from that I am more comfortable with cultural differences then my friend that is Chinese or half but has never been there. Just be happy that in L.A you have a Asian community at least where I am now there is no such thing and no Latinos at all which is even weirder for me. I am moving to Montreal soon so I know there is more Asian influences here and there but I doubt any Hispanic culture with low riders ;D heehee.
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Post by Freecia on Aug 10, 2007 15:21:15 GMT -5
Hi there fellow Taiwanese It seems like you have already "picked a side" as far as identifying yourself goes. I think it's important that you discuss this issue with your girlfriend and see how she feels about what you plan on doing when you two have kids in the future. She may be very supportive with your intention in wish of having your children to be able to learn your culture, but she may also feel that you are prioritizing your culture over hers. Both cutlures are important in raising your kids so it is a very tough decision, and even I think about this myself sometimes. I suppose, you can always live in a country where English and Chinese are common such as Singapore. We have plenty of EAs from that country on this board and it seems like a very neutral place to raise biracial children. Taipei also has quite a few American schools or English schools that you can send your children to, they learn English in school, Chinese outside of school. Of course, all this, has to be agreed upon by your girlfriend, because ultimately, in my opinion, she has to make the most sacrifice. Ie, living in a country where she's not familar with the culture or the language. On top of that, she has to raise children, which is already a hard job to begin with, nevermind the cutlural/language barrier. Here's a pretty good resource for ya: www.forumosa.com/This is a forum focusing on foreigners living in Taiwan. They may be able to provide your girlfriend and you some insights that you don't find here.
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Post by ethan9273 on Aug 10, 2007 15:41:42 GMT -5
Thanks for some of the feedback. This is something I've spoken in depth/in length with her about, and both she and I understand that it would be a sacrafice for her. That said, she seems very comfortable with the idea. She understands how asian parents are, how large chinese families function/ is learning chinese now, and has visited China/Taiwan with me a couple times now. And it's not like I make it sound all great or anything, pretty much present her with the facts of the pros/cons of living in a chinese family. Neither of us are naive and are both highly educated. So it's not like she can't picture what life would be like. Someone mentioned that that they feel my kids will associate to be US citizens, which is fine, but can you help me understand why you would feel that is the case? I have dual citizenship, but don't feel like I am a US citizen first and foremost. If they were to spend 70% of their youth/teenage years in asia, would they feel any different than me?
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Post by avax on Aug 11, 2007 2:15:13 GMT -5
I can't answer that, Ethan, as much as I would like to. I'm going to write a few things that may or may not help, or hopefully provide some fodder for thoughts. If you have any more questions feel free to message me.
What I have written regarding US citizens has to do partly with what I've only seen. I'm sure there are many like yourself who feel otherwise. It took me a long time to get used to north america. And by the time I went back to asia, nothing was the same. I don't think I can fully relate to either place but that's fine. Home is wherever my family is. Your kids might feel that way, or they might not.
I don't have dual citizenship because one of my countries won't allow it. I'm really a foreigner in a place where I still have family and close friends and many memories. I went through puberty there and I think was starting to identify and make sense both of the "eurasian" identity and national pride (for me, something childish because I hadn't known anything else). I identified with my eurasian friends in asia and I remember things we do and say that we don't do and say here. In less than a year, it was gone. Then I was here where people made fun of my accent, my spelling, my dress, the smell of my food. My blood roots are in asia and probably the way I think, eat, sleep, understand the world around me has a lot more to do with those growing years I spent there than the rest of the later years where I was more observant as an immigrant in another country. What do the psychologists call it.. formative? I'm canadian but not. I do "canadian" things but I can't really relate even though I've sorta kinda really developed an affection for this place. Doesn't bother me. As I said, what matters are the big things like family, health, peace of mind. Your kids might feel that way too, or they might not.
Maybe they'll enjoy the duality of living in two places. There are lots of members on the forum who have - and a number of those who live in more than two. To refer back to your earlier question on identity, and at the risk of stating the obvious, I think the way your gf and yourself handle whatever you plan to do will influence how they perceive their changes. And if they're exposed to either place more or less equally from young, I don't see how it would be odd at all when they're growing up (ie. "identity issues" as you mentioned). I sometimes think back to my parents and the family I have here who are much much older than I am and I can't imagine the significant change in the way of life, culture, values there must have been. Yet change comes slowly. My family resisted that change also for a long time. Maybe that had to do with my own resistance at the beginning.
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Post by cewek on Aug 11, 2007 3:00:56 GMT -5
The biggest difficulty my husband and I faced was cultural differences.He is chinese indonesian and I am " white" ( he is a first born son too-thats a big learning curve sometimes) his family have very strong old fashioned cultural chinese identification's,their children( 5 other sister and brother in laws) do and don't-they also are indonesian culturally and some of them are western because they have lived or studied in either australia and usa( so they have different outlooks from each other depending in where they studied -its a mess!!) .We have a nine year old boy.Also the first grandchild for both of our families. Over time and ups and downs in this marriage I agree about the formative theory-even though husband is now here he will always "be" where he was growing up-language wise,thinking wise etc-it becomes more entrenched as he gets older too I've noticed.Which is interesting-he has been here 16 years. And I was a nightmare for him when we lived in Jakarta- I must say he adapted to here better than I did there.Well- I was younger then too so I freaked out at stuff more than I would now. His culture has definitely been the dominant one in our marriage, and in our sons upbringing. And we mostly get it right -but also have not at times.Sometimes I think I am completely mad-and I feel really removed from other people because it can be exhausting feeling you have to be literate in two cultures and also function in a socially acceptable way in them -but in the end it becomes very normal and fulfilling.And then we feel other people are wierd-not us!! I don't think you can avoid that when kids have culturally different parents.It will have its way at some point-it just has to. I really hope that my son finds it no big deal.But if he does-well -he will just have to find his way too. Bets of luck-it can be so much fun, really-kids are just great. :-)
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Post by avax on Aug 11, 2007 11:51:14 GMT -5
His culture has definitely been the dominant one in our marriage, and in our sons upbringing. And we mostly get it right -but also have not at times.Sometimes I think I am completely mad-and I feel really removed from other people because it can be exhausting feeling you have to be literate in two cultures and also function in a socially acceptable way in them -but in the end it becomes very normal and fulfilling. Are you okay with the fact that his culture is more 'dominating'? I'm guessing after so many years, and the fact that you're both still married attests that it is okay. I think this would be an interesting question to pose to my mother but it sounds like, unlike you, she had a lot of mixed and eurasian family and friends when she was in asia. I'm not sure what my culture is likely because I can't define it in one word - one word that separate groups of people have created, groups that are a part of me but that I am not a whole part of. _______________________ Another point I wanted to bring up was exactly that^. Why is it that fluidity a "crisis"? I've never understood that and I think it's together infuriating and amusing to be lumped in the "identity issues" category simply because people are quite stupid with their categories. If they cannot recognize you or identify you with something else, the person must be "confused". I personally think mixed people internalize those bullocks. In an effort to make up for the lack of categories sufficient for the mixed experience I see ravers go on and on about the definition of "eurasian". I still think forming a concrete definition is a trap and a fallacy. I also see it as a seeking of outside approval, some linguistic approval, because we've been bred to categorize. The categories exclude and still people keep pushing for militant definitions.
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Post by avax on Aug 11, 2007 14:30:34 GMT -5
I know you would never mean it that way, Mel, but the term "civilized" or "uncivilized" makes me shudder for all the accounts and travel-writings I've read by european explorers/writers like Conrad and "The Ethiopian". Although subjective to a point, to me, the word is a 'white' man's word usually used to insinuate subordination, control, colonization. I don't mean it in a PC way but that's the discourse that's out there.
Living in asia, I didn't mix around with any expats or international schoolers. They were total snobs!
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Post by avax on Aug 11, 2007 15:19:04 GMT -5
Don't apologize! It was just off a random tangent and just thought I'd share. I should probably also add that I have since had positive experiences with international schoolers, so as not to leave people hanging by a bitter thread.
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Post by ethan9273 on Aug 14, 2007 16:09:27 GMT -5
Really appreciate everyone's input. Celtriya, particularly insightful.
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Post by jewbird on Aug 15, 2007 0:47:44 GMT -5
I know you would never mean it that way, Mel, but the term "civilized" or "uncivilized" makes me shudder for all the accounts and travel-writings I've read by european explorers/writers like Conrad and "The Ethiopian". Although subjective to a point, to me, the word is a 'white' man's word usually used to insinuate subordination, control, colonization. I don't mean it in a PC way but that's the discourse that's out there. Living in asia, I didn't mix around with any expats or international schoolers. They were total snobs! Aren't you being a snob by snubbing them?
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Post by avax on Aug 15, 2007 0:56:42 GMT -5
^ Circular argument. They were bitches, and I have no problem snubbing bitches.
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Post by jewbird on Aug 15, 2007 1:18:57 GMT -5
I sense a pattern here...
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Post by cewek on Aug 22, 2007 21:44:09 GMT -5
His culture has definitely been the dominant one in our marriage, and in our sons upbringing. And we mostly get it right -but also have not at times.Sometimes I think I am completely mad-and I feel really removed from other people because it can be exhausting feeling you have to be literate in two cultures and also function in a socially acceptable way in them -but in the end it becomes very normal and fulfilling. Are you okay with the fact that his culture is more 'dominating'? I'm guessing after so many years, and the fact that you're both still married attests that it is okay. I think this would be an interesting question to pose to my mother but it sounds like, unlike you, she had a lot of mixed and eurasian family and friends when she was in asia. I'm not sure what my culture is likely because I can't define it in one word - one word that separate groups of people have created, groups that are a part of me but that I am not a whole part of. We have learnt to compromise ;D I sometimes miss living somewhere where I don't understand everything, and I miss feeling in my own little bubble.It kind of suited me in many ways And he himself( and his siblings) always felt not wholly included into Indonesian society -because he grew up knowing everyone hated the chinese-and not allowed to learn it, renewing pr cards every 5 years,all that orde baru/soeharto years stuff- and was used to being called an anjing, mata sipit( dog/slitty eyed),being jumped for money on the way home from school etc etc and yet he was not really considered a "real" Chinese by the mainland Chinese people( language reasons etc). This made the diaspora there more old fashioned and dug in to really old timers culture, as they had to build a world they were included in . So thats another layer to it. And then landing here when he was like 19 or so-asking for trouble really! ;D He has learned to chill out about now though!Dangduts' still the music of his country in his heart deep down( lame joke...) ahh indonesia... www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFtFVnfUn14
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