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Post by juancarlos on Oct 17, 2007 18:35:05 GMT -5
^ From what I see his argument has plenty of validity. From what I can tell, you're giving up quite a bit of ground by suggesting that we could only compare the schools if all things were equal. With this idea you're admitting things aren't equal in some way (funding, technology, etc.) Those things in themselves could be enough to suggest that Fil MD schools may not do quite as good a job of preparing students for the practice of medicine in the US. (I'm guessing this could be said about schools in the vast majority of countries). - One thing I know to be true which you seem to be denying: Filipino med schools have lower standards of admission than US schools (at least for American students). Students with lower grades that are unable to get into US schools are accepted to schools in the Philippines. I know multiple people for whom this was the case, have talked to many premed advisors, seen stats... in my exp. this seems to be a universally accepted truth. - None of it is to say that Filipinos are less intelligent than Americans or any other group. - Once an MD has passed the licensing boards she should be treated with the same amount of respect as any other, regardless of schooling. With this in mind, I can see how Filipinos could begin to be justifiably offended. It's really worth pointing out that in this show the doctor in question is clearly white so the joke merely concerns his schooling not his race. This makes the whole thing much less offensive in my eyes. I love Filipino people, I think they're wonderful Of course, things are not equal between Philippine and U.S. med schools in terms of technology and funding. But those are not the only things that determine the quality of a med school. Where Filipinos maybe lacking in technology, they make up for it by having to learn to improvize and use ingenuity in treating patients in the face of supplies shortages. By the way, the issue here is the quality of Philippine and U.S. med schools, not which ones produce candidates better qualified to practice medicine only in the U.S. If the issue is the latter, then of course the U.S. med schools have an unqualified homefield advantage, which makes it more difficult to judge objectively which country has the better med schools. Again speaking of anecdotal evidence, mine is that my aunt who received her medical training in the Philippines became a medical director of a Chicago hospital with American doctors as her subordinates. She would never have arrived at that position had her med school training in the Philippines been inferior. As far as med students switching to studying in the Philippines after failing to gain admission into U.S. schools, again there are other things to consider. First, we all know that there is tier ranking of med schools both in the U.S. and the Philippines. So, which schools did they apply in the U.S. and which schools did they get admitted in the Philippines? Also, those U.S. med students have the resources and money to study in the Philippines. If you give Filipinos the same level of monetary resources, will Filipino students who do not get admitted into Philippine med schools get admitted into some U.S. med schools? I guess we'll never know. Because of the above, this debate to me is inconclusive.
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 18, 2007 6:18:08 GMT -5
Gohan,
Well, thank you for agreeing with me that money does play a major role, if not the most important, role in the quality of med schools. As far as admission standards, UP and UST have tough admission procedures and testing. I'd say it's comparable to U.S. medical school standards.
Ok, someone mentioned that there are Americans who didn't get admitted to U.S. med schools and instead have gone to study in the Philippines since admission standards are claimed to be lower there. Well, if you're right and that Filipino med schools are indeed inferior, why bother going to the Philippines to study there if these American students do not have any hope of passing the USMLE in the U.S.? Unless of course, these American med students will thereafter only practice in the Philippines which as you said pays doctors very low salaries. Either way, it just does not make any sense logically.
I personally studied pre-med at UP and it was extremely difficult to get admitted and very competitive and it was also difficult trying to get good grades. When I moved to the U.S. and studied at a university here, it was a walk in the park. I concede that I never went to med school here. However, if UP pre-med is already that difficult to get into and to complete, how much more would the medicine proper be? That is why I believe UP is on par with at least some of the U.S. med schools.
Have you actually studied in the Philippines yourself?
As far as calling me "crazy", can we just stick to the issue at hand and not engage in personal attacks?
JC
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 19, 2007 6:29:37 GMT -5
Gohan,
The description of this site was:
"The purpose of the EurasianNation Forums is to provide a place where people with an interest in Eurasian or other multiracial/ interracial/ transracial issues can connect, discuss, and share their ideas in a positive way."
It does not say that one has to be EA in order to join. Moreover, as an Asian living in the West, I encounter some similar issues as EA's encounter. That's why I'm here. Regarding German blood, it's actually around 10% or so. What about you?
As far as the type of student I was, before coming to the States, I was majoring in biology and my gpa in U.P. was about running for distinction. When I came to the U.S., I switched to economics at one of the top universities in my state, and graduated essentially with highest distinction. And yes, the fact that I did struggle much more at U.P. than here in the States is even more startling given that economics is technically much harder than biology as a major.
I speak from my own experience, but it is also representative of the experience of others in my family. Speaking of law school, "hearsay" is inadmissible in court. Experience, however, is admissible. So, did you say that you heard about the poor quality of Philippine med schools and lower admission standards only from your relatives, your uncles to be exact? And you yourself never actually studied in the Philippines? LOL.
JC
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Post by EA Observer on Oct 21, 2007 3:11:54 GMT -5
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Post by SecretAsianMan on Oct 22, 2007 17:04:50 GMT -5
While you are certainly correct in pointing out that "diploma mills" have proliferated in the Philippines in recent years, this is actually a red-herring in this case (just like the specific issue of racism IMHO). What we are talking about is the denigration of physicians who received training in the Philippines -- not just limited to graduates of those substandard schools (most of whom cannot pass their professional boards/license exams anyway). Why then is it so difficult for people to stand behind professionals, in this case physicians, who are defending their reputations from prejudicial defamation? Without hesitation, I'm with those who see this as unacceptable. That these professionals are so important to the health care system in many areas of the U.S. makes this even more astounding to me. This is further evidence to me that Americans have become way too arrogant and indifferent with respect to even their own problems...
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Post by SecretAsianMan on Oct 22, 2007 17:43:24 GMT -5
Oh, I just wanted to add one more point. I think that this incident is just another product of American arrogance -- a form of chauvinism taken to an extreme where expressing American pride somehow necessitates disparaging/humiliating the rest of the world.
Now discuss that one.
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Post by SecretAsianMan on Oct 22, 2007 20:21:16 GMT -5
Nonsense, it doesn't apply to this discussion (that's what I meant by "red herring," in case you didn't understand). That would be like saying that I have no right to defend my reputation as a graduate of an American university, because there are a bunch of diploma mills/unaccredited schools here, such as these: www.credentialwatch.org/non/mich.shtml. Anyhow, I don't wish to continue belaboring the obvious... P.S. The article discusses the rise in "fly-by-night"/unaccredited medical schools in the last few years, whose students got duped into enrolling only to find out that they haven't been equipped/prepared to pass the medical licensure exams when they graduate. It's not actually a comment on licensed physicians making it in the U.S., who studied in the Philippines, but I guess that doesn't matter to some people here. Does anyone actually read (and comprehend) anymore?
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Post by SecretAsianMan on Oct 22, 2007 20:46:38 GMT -5
Oh, I just wanted to add one more point. I think that this incident is just another product of American arrogance -- a form of chauvinism taken to an extreme where expressing American pride somehow necessitates disparaging/humiliating the rest of the world. Now discuss that one. It was from a few writers on the desperate housewives...i don't know if they're trying to be arrogant of how good us medical schools are...i don't know if they're doctors or whatever...i think dey did it as a joke... <snipped stuff I didn't follow> My point is that the kind of "humor" being served up on that show, in this instance, is nothing really new to American audiences. It's funny to some people here who view the rest of the world prejudicially as a joke, as everyone else is supposed to be SO vastly inferior to America. What the hell ever happened to judging *all* people according to their *merits*? Quite frankly, I am sick of this sort of humor (usually directed at the Hispanic and Muslim world these days). Americans need to grow up.
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Post by kentusmaximus on Oct 23, 2007 6:54:51 GMT -5
We British are more accustomed to lampooning ourselves than almost any other race. The number of satirical publications and broadsheets available in London alone is bewildering. I think if one is unable to have a jolly good laugh at the expense of someone else- then what is the point of comedy? We mock ourselves like no other.
However I find the humour of Desperate Housewives a little hard to understand as I am unfamiliar with the complexities of Filipino and American medical institutions.
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Post by buff on Oct 23, 2007 7:59:11 GMT -5
Most foreign medical doctor graduates (Medicine Proper- the first 9 years) that are now practicing in the US not only passed the mle step 1,2, & 3 exams, but also took residency, and fellowship in the States. And after each program, they need to be certified by passing a thorough exam. Volume-wise, India has the highest number of foreign medical doctor practitioners in the US, followed by Philippines. Percentage-wise (per Country Capita) its vice versa.
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Post by EA Observer on Oct 23, 2007 14:36:46 GMT -5
...but from what i've heard this hasn't been the case because the filipino doctors that graduated from fil med schools have to pass the same board that doctors that graduated from us med schools...so they're respected. They aren't truly respected unless they are given the same opportunities, rewards, and perks as their white collegues. Saying that they are respected as exploited colleagues for the benefit of their white colleagues and bosses isn't saying much. In fact, it's downright indignant and humiliating.
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 24, 2007 5:32:25 GMT -5
We British are more accustomed to lampooning ourselves than almost any other race. The number of satirical publications and broadsheets available in London alone is bewildering. I think if one is unable to have a jolly good laugh at the expense of someone else- then what is the point of comedy? We mock ourselves like no other. However I find the humour of Desperate Housewives a little hard to understand as I am unfamiliar with the complexities of Filipino and American medical institutions. There's a big difference between making fun of yourself or your own ethnic group/nationality as opposed to making fun of another ethnic group/nationality. I mean I've heard black people use the "n" word with each other with no offending result. However, if a white person uses the "n" word against a black person, then you have world war iii.
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Post by courvoisier on Dec 14, 2007 11:56:24 GMT -5
I am glad there wasn't too much over reaction to the desperate housewives thing. Let the mainstream media mock and make fools of themselves. Then one can turn around and laugh in their face! IMO we should stick together, remember the MASTERPLAN: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLHueWyz4X4One day there will be glory for all asian brothers and sisters! muhaha...hehe P.S. - i am half filipino/white and i didn't post that video on youtube
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Post by jericho on Dec 14, 2007 17:42:34 GMT -5
My filipino surgeon replaced my heart with a baked potato. I cursed him for his incompetence.
I clearly asked for an aubergine.
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