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Fat
Sept 28, 2009 11:33:07 GMT -5
Post by betahat on Sept 28, 2009 11:33:07 GMT -5
By citing Jessica Biel and J-Lo (I'll throw in Jessica Alba too) you're kind of proving my point. That those women are cited as examples of curvy tells you something about how extreme our society's standards of thinness have gotten relative to average body size. Now you could argue that for some men a "medium" ass is ideal rather than the boy-hips that you see on the majority of models, but by no means could any of those women qualify as large - at least by American standards, I would say they are safely in the bottom-25% of the Ass size distribution. This: media.photobucket.com/image/jessica%20biel/blue-fang/jessica_biel.jpgis not a big ass, not even close. Ditto J-Lo, Jessica Alba, Beyonce, etc. Yes, their hip to waist ratios are smaller than the norm for Hollywood, but I've never found it to be so dramatic, or their defining feature (only J-lo went as far as to insure hers). Anyway, my statement was more about what someone means when they say they are an assman. Maybe what they mean is a medium sized ass? A T-man clearly prefers something on the larger side - I would think at least a C-cup and probably a D. The fact that so many women get breast implants, but ass implants are comparatively rare, tells you something about the number of men who are "Ass-men" in the same sense that many men are "Tit-men" - i.e, that like 'em real big, significantly larger than average.
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Fat
Sept 28, 2009 18:45:23 GMT -5
Post by milkman's baby on Sept 28, 2009 18:45:23 GMT -5
To the last several posters: by posting that photo of Rachel Ray, I did not intend to begin a discussion and marveling of female body parts. I was simply using her photo as an example of someone who is "borderline fat" - some say that's fat, some say it's normal.
On another note, does anyone else agree that perhaps a fat woman is analogous to a short man? Both are generally undesirable amongst both respective genders. I rarely hear people complain about fat men. It's always about women. A short woman isn't given the cold shoulder as quickly as a short dude.
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Fat
Sept 28, 2009 21:40:36 GMT -5
Post by palaver on Sept 28, 2009 21:40:36 GMT -5
^Is this what you want to know?
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Fat
Sept 28, 2009 22:10:36 GMT -5
Post by milkman's baby on Sept 28, 2009 22:10:36 GMT -5
I already knew women are supposed to have more body fat than men, which is why it's odd that people give fat women more crap than fat men. If a man is fat, that REALLY means he's been eating too much and being lazy. But women gain weight so easily, so I feel like they have more of an excuse to be fat.
That's my philosophy and I'm sticking to it.
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Fat
Sept 28, 2009 23:57:52 GMT -5
Post by admin on Sept 28, 2009 23:57:52 GMT -5
On another note, does anyone else agree that perhaps a fat woman is analogous to a short man? Both are generally undesirable amongst both respective genders. I rarely hear people complain about fat men. It's always about women. A short woman isn't given the cold shoulder as quickly as a short dude. That's very interesting.
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Fat
Sept 29, 2009 7:14:58 GMT -5
Post by Subuatai on Sept 29, 2009 7:14:58 GMT -5
I rarely hear people complain about fat men. It's always about women. Women complain about fat or skinny or short or ugly or arrogant or immature or rude or 'bogan' or (100 other things) men Including someone in the next room... ;D Yes they are! well, for me anyways. I call those "walking blowjobs" Hehe, I'm shallow Though her body shape isn't in the "stick model zone", it's definitely rammable. Her shape suits her features to complete perfection.
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Fat
Sept 29, 2009 13:09:46 GMT -5
Post by palaver on Sept 29, 2009 13:09:46 GMT -5
If a man is fat, that REALLY means he's been eating too much and being lazy. But women gain weight so easily, so I feel like they have more of an excuse to be fat. Women do have some factors aiding them: -men look fatter at the same body fat percentage (see chart) -women are more selective about what they eat -women pay more attention to their health and are likely to discover their weight gain and consult others -the exercise bike is the only equipment they need at the gym -women laugh more. lol...teehee ^_^~~ (which is good exercise) Male advantages: -slightly higher metabolism (5-10%) -greater muscle mass accelerates the weight loss from exercise -fat wallets are slimming. Weight isn't the biggest component of our self esteem. Status, wealth, height... -culturally, men are the primary physical laborer. Women are passed over for those jobs/activities. -men don't get pregnant
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Fat
Sept 29, 2009 17:07:37 GMT -5
Post by betahat on Sept 29, 2009 17:07:37 GMT -5
I think there is some validity to your analogy Sweetfart. Most men don't find overweight women attractive, most women would never date a guy shorter than them (though there are of course many exceptions as always). The main difference is that height is generally seen as something that you can't help. That doesn't mean that short men don't have a hard time finding women or don't face discrimination, but it does probably mean that you don't impute a moral quality - laziness, sloth, lack of concern over your physical apperance, "letting yourself go" - to a physical one. Of course that could be worse, because an overweight woman can always lose weight, whereas all a short man can do is make lots of money, wear platform shoes, and stand on a box whenever shooting a movie.
Of course, overweight men don't have it easy either, but it does seem like it is easier for them to make up for appearances by being rich and/or funny. You don't see a lot of rich obese women with really good looking trophy husbands, but you do see a decent number of overweight female comedians on tv (I guess Roseanne and Rosie O'Donnell would qualify, along with several black women like Monique, Queen Latifah, Oprah during her fat phases, etc.). People like Rachel Ray or Kate Winslet are actually normal size (maybe on the high end of the ideal range on Palaver's chart is my guess) but are considered "borderline" or "full figured" only in comparison to all the other women on tv.
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Fat
Sept 29, 2009 18:59:27 GMT -5
Post by catgirl on Sept 29, 2009 18:59:27 GMT -5
I would tell the person and try to help him to get fitter! Its not so nice to feel that your boyfriend doesnt want to look go for you Its also depends on the situation. Maybe hes getting fat because of some depression? I dont know.... But something would be wrong when you go from slim to fat quickly.
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Fat
Sept 29, 2009 19:02:46 GMT -5
Post by catgirl on Sept 29, 2009 19:02:46 GMT -5
By citing Jessica Biel and J-Lo (I'll throw in Jessica Alba too) you're kind of proving my point. That those women are cited as examples of curvy tells you something about how extreme our society's standards of thinness have gotten relative to average body size. Now you could argue that for some men a "medium" ass is ideal rather than the boy-hips that you see on the majority of models, but by no means could any of those women qualify as large - at least by American standards, I would say they are safely in the bottom-25% of the Ass size distribution. This: media.photobucket.com/image/jessica%20biel/blue-fang/jessica_biel.jpgis not a big ass, not even close. Ditto J-Lo, Jessica Alba, Beyonce, etc. Yes, their hip to waist ratios are smaller than the norm for Hollywood, but I've never found it to be so dramatic, or their defining feature (only J-lo went as far as to insure hers). Anyway, my statement was more about what someone means when they say they are an assman. Maybe what they mean is a medium sized ass? A T-man clearly prefers something on the larger side - I would think at least a C-cup and probably a D. The fact that so many women get breast implants, but ass implants are comparatively rare, tells you something about the number of men who are "Ass-men" in the same sense that many men are "Tit-men" - i.e, that like 'em real big, significantly larger than average. But these people are still slim and fit! They just have the "fat" or muscles in the right places! Estrogen does that to a woman, and gives you the hourglass figure = curvy! Thin is ugly and there are very few guys who consider that attractive. Its just women with bad self esteem who believe so!
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Fat
Sept 29, 2009 19:04:48 GMT -5
Post by palaver on Sept 29, 2009 19:04:48 GMT -5
Most men don't find overweight women attractive, most women would never date a guy shorter than them (though there are of course many exceptions as always). I believe what most men are keen on is the waist to hip ratio. Studies and history have shown that men prefer an ideal (.7) waist to hip ratio over any other factors including weight and height. Obesity is unattractive in a woman only so far as it distorts her ideal waist to hip ratio. This is what I mean by our bodies having their own ideal weight. Venus and the Three Graces Surprised by a Mortal by Jacques Blanchard
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Fat
Sept 29, 2009 19:07:25 GMT -5
Post by catgirl on Sept 29, 2009 19:07:25 GMT -5
Oh by the way, my ex put on some weight during the few years we were together. I didnt leave him cause he was fatter, but it certainly didnt help for our relationship that he was eating junk all the time. Worst turnoff ever!
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Fat
Sept 29, 2009 22:39:58 GMT -5
Post by milkman's baby on Sept 29, 2009 22:39:58 GMT -5
The main difference is that height is generally seen as something that you can't help. That doesn't mean that short men don't have a hard time finding women or don't face discrimination, but it does probably mean that you don't impute a moral quality - laziness, sloth, lack of concern over your physical apperance, "letting yourself go" - to a physical one. Height is seen, consciously or subconsciously, as a sign of health. Taller men are thought to be in better health, which would therefore produce healthier offspring for a woman. Hence, woman like tall men. A woman's weight, however, is indicative of her behavior more than anything. And as Palaver noted earlier, some cultures today still maintain their partiality for fatter women, as it signals wealth and good nourishment. Of the two of those, I would say the tall man beauty standard is more primitive and natural than the lean woman standard. It's rather recent (within the last couple hundred years?) that women were expected to be thin, whereas I can only assume tallness in a man was ALWAYS desirable, especially in hunter-gatherer cultures. Nevertheless, I am not trying to encourage either of those beauty ideals more than the other. I personally wouldn't mind a man a few inches shorter than me (but anything too short or a man with dwarfism makes me feel like I'm acting on infantilism), but this is probably because I am not the most fit of people and I know it would be hypocritical of me to be selective like that. If I were much better looking, however, then yes I might be more shallow. Way more shallow. And to be honest, I only accept that I have to "settle for less" with a pouty face. So I guess I am shallow, I just don't act on it (because I can't). Well of course, it's always been known that women have to rely more on looks. But I think even in circles where a man's beauty is taken into account, people are generally easier on the chubby boy. Not just poor/working-class social circles (which have the highest obesity rates), but any social circle. Maybe we can conclude from this that women focus more on the face while men care more about the body? Heterosexuals, that is. Actually, I just realized this was brought up in this very thread before. But I don't think we came up with a sociological answer.
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Fat
Sept 29, 2009 23:05:46 GMT -5
Post by milkman's baby on Sept 29, 2009 23:05:46 GMT -5
And note that when I say height is correlated with health, I am stating what most people think. I actually don't know whether height is medically linked to health.
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Fat
Sept 29, 2009 23:35:43 GMT -5
Post by palaver on Sept 29, 2009 23:35:43 GMT -5
Of the two of those, I would say the tall man beauty standard is more primitive and natural than the lean woman standard. It's rather recent (within the last couple hundred years?) that women were expected to be thin, whereas I can only assume tallness in a man was ALWAYS desirable, especially in hunter-gatherer cultures. Let's think about desirable. When you think of desire, you think of fitness. When you examine fitness, you must examine environment. Modern humans are no longer under the same pressures as hunter gatherer societies--and when they were, environment did not always favor tallness. In anthropology, two rules govern human body size and proportions: Bergmann's rule: The body mass to surface area ratio of humans and other mammals increases with colder climates. (heat storage capacity) Allen's rule: Height and shape of appendages with conform to minimize the surface area in colder climates. (rate of heat loss) So if humans in cold climates were to grow in height, they would would also have to grow in mass (fat) and reduce their surface area (short appendages) to not be at an greater disadvantage. The Inuits and Masai are common examples of this rule.
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