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Post by waywardwolf on Sept 29, 2007 4:43:22 GMT -5
first off, the US is a country of immigrants Most Americans have forgotten this. Though they still like to call it the land of opportunities.
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Post by juancarlos on Sept 29, 2007 8:59:24 GMT -5
Filamchi,
If you really want to be educated in the U.S., there are scholarships, public universities, government aid, loans, etc. I put myself through college without government aid by working.
Why do legal immigrants get jobs in the U.S.? Well, perhaps they're more motivated and hard working than the typical American. Just go to your local DMV and you will see how "motivated" American workers are, especially those working for the government.
You also forget the tremendous hurdles legal immigrants face in coming to America. They have to pay for transportation/settlement, immigration fees, learn a new culture, leave family behind, etc. Life is not easy for them as you would think. On the other hand, Americans have all the advantages of already being familiar with the culture, English fluency, access to government aid, etc.
You want Dept. of Education to raise salaries and provide more student aid? Are you willing to pay higher taxes for that?
JC
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Post by juancarlos on Sept 29, 2007 9:12:15 GMT -5
all those "hispanic" immigrants you re most likely refering to don t take the jobs of american citizens either...they re like the urban "floater workforce" in china : they re not declared and the job they do don t involve degrees in a lot of cases...yet , they re needed. if it weren t for the illegal alien wrapping my burrito at taco bell, i m sure it would have been a few cents more expensive! the people whom you are talking about are the ones i mentioned above, and wether you like it or not, they actually have a sh*tload more motivation than US citizens going to college. not only that, but in a lot of cases they re their country s "elite" and therefore tend to do better than americans in school... I disagree. Illegal workers have proven their willingness to break laws and act unethically. "Motivation" should not be considered. Even an ambitious drug-dealer can be considered "motivated", but should we applaud his industriousness? This is not the kind of workforce you want in a healthy nation. I would not like to be served a burger by an under-paid criminal. Companies are only interested in the bottomline and will externalise the costs of hiring illegals onto society - e.g. the provision of public services to illegal aliens that, as non-tax payers, they are not entitled to use. Every time an illegal alien uses a public service, or is processed by the government, YOUR tax dollars are being spent to subsidise his employment and lifestyle. The only winners are businesses. Every time you buy inexpensive food, clothes, use cleaned facilities, you are also being subsidized by illegal immigrants. Otherwise, you'd have to be paying twice or three times as much if those items you use or purchase were made or prepared by citizens of your country. Perhaps you wouldn't really mind if oranges become as expensive as caviar!!! By the way, an illegal alien is violating civil law, not criminal law. Therefore, an illegal alien cannot be considered on the same level as a drug dealer, who violates criminal law. In other words, do illegal aliens cause the same level of harm to society as drug dealers? With regard to businesses, you forget that people own businesses. That includes granny who owns shares of a corporation, auntie who's a supervisor at the local grocery shop, etc., etc. JC
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cm
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by cm on Sept 30, 2007 0:48:46 GMT -5
It seems that the American dream is reserved for educated foreigners rather than native born Americans. If the US has a need for certain professions, they simply pick out educated foreigners rather than educating or helping Americans. I feel like the US has been turned away from helping alot of Americans, thus one of the reasons for the disappearing middle class. For example, it's becoming ridiculously expensive to pursue degrees for most Americans...while immigrants from 2nd and 3rd world countries can afford these kind of programs due to much cheaper tuition than the US. Hence, if there is any shortage in the laborfoce like special education for example - schools will just hire foreign grads with the credentials. the Department of Education should provide more financial help for students, ESPECIALLY for positions that are being given away to immigrants. And the Department of Ed should also increase the salary for such positions instead of hiring immigrants who would work these positions for much less. I just find it sad that America will just get foreigners to take positions in the workforce that could have been filled by americans. And meanwhile these Americans that could have take the positions have to settle for lower paying jobs or no work at all. Uncle Sam just keeps getting more girls instead of taking care of his previous wives and children... Education is still cheap as hell here and more available here than anywhere in the world. If you are a peasant in China or India, you're lucky to have middle school in many places. The US has the Jr. College system for poorer students which I had to attend until they finished building the UC in my area. It's about 7000 per year to go to UC and 3300 for CSU. If you swallow your pride and live with your parents like I am doing, or get a phat scholarship which my friend did, then it isn't that bad. I bash the US a lot, but I defend the education system. There are problems. Too much emphasis on liberal arts and not enough science and health sciences. But otherwise this is the place to go to get educated and to research for universities. Now that being said, once you get educated here, many like to leave to more exciting metropolises around the world. US metros are too unaffordable.
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cm
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by cm on Sept 30, 2007 0:50:29 GMT -5
Oh, California has given me 12K this year in grants and loans, with less than half being loans. It's not that bad in California.
anyways, 4-year college is overrated unless you are going to grad school IMO.
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Post by juancarlos on Sept 30, 2007 0:54:31 GMT -5
Filamchi,
American citizens cannot get the open positions, not because a foreigner is better qualified, but often times because the American citizen is not qualified at all. If you're an employer, who would you prefer to hire for an open nursing position: a Filipina nurse with a bachelor's degree or an American with a Certified Nursing Assistant diploma?
As part of the process of bringing in legal immigrants to fill open positions, employers are required to demonstrate that there are no qualified American workers who are willing and able to fill those positions. They must advertise the job in the newspaper, etc. It's called "labor certification". Prospective immigrant workers cannot get Green Cards without going thru that process, unless of course they're Nobel Prize/Pulitzer Prize winners.
Moreover, you fail to consider that for employers, hiring a foreigner and bringing them to the U.S. is also costly. Immigration filing fees can run up to over $2,000, and that excludes attorney's fees as well. Immigration paperwork can take up to several years to process. That in and of itself is an implicit "affirmative action" in favor of American workers.
Also, as alluded to before, education in the Philippines, China or India may seem cheap to you, but how cheap is it for their average citizen whose per capita income is about less than $2,000 per year compared to an American's over $42,000 per year? For the life of me, I don't know where you're quoting the $500 tuition in the Philippine nursing or PT schools. I personally know people there who are paying $1,000 per semester of nursing school. And that's in the provinces, not the urban areas!!!
By the way, there are other countries who intentionally bring in highly skilled immigrants to fill open positions in their countries. These include Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the U.K. The U.S. is by no means unique in the active pursuit of highly skilled legal immigrants and talent from around the world.
You didn't answer my question: If you want the Dept. of Education to raise salaries and open more positions to Americans, are you willing to pay for that with your own tax money via higher taxation?
JC
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Post by juancarlos on Sept 30, 2007 5:38:50 GMT -5
Floyd,
It's not as simple as what you have portrayed. I'll also give you a different scenario:
Company C is in the business of planting, harvesting and selling oranges. There are not enough American workers who want to pick oranges at the current wage level. Company has three options: (1) raise wages and raise prices of orange, (2) hire illegals to keep costs down or (3) go out of business. If option 1 is pursued, Americans will not be willing to buy oranges if they become as expensive as caviar. If you shut them off from option 2, then Company C goes out of business, along with the loss of existing American jobs and taxes.
No matter what you say, illegal immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy by providing the vast majority of labor in the restaurant business, construction, farming, maintenance, and clothing industries.
The only feasible solution for me is "legalization", since that will bring them out of the shadows, make it easier to tax them, and allow the government to focus on catching real criminals (i.e. terrorists, murderers, rapists, etc.). Of course, the border has to be secured to ensure that future flows of illegal immigration is stopped, so we no longer deal with this problem.
Again, we're hijacking this thread since it's supposed to focus on legal immigration. I suppose you're opposed to legal immigration as well.
JC
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Post by EA Observer on Sept 30, 2007 13:17:08 GMT -5
"All men are created equal" - Thomas Jefferson
One of the most famous propaganda by one of America's most famous propagandists ( as well as slave owners and philanderers )
"All animals are equal but some are more equal than others" - From George Orwell's Animal Farm
The practical definition of "equality" by the W.A.S.P.'s of America, as actually practiced since the founding of USA (and Canada).
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Post by juancarlos on Oct 1, 2007 3:39:21 GMT -5
Filamchi,
I'd like to respond to your rebuttal, but for some reason you've mixed up my last posting with yours, making it really confusing and difficult to read. Could you kindly repost your response?
JC
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Post by Ave` on Oct 16, 2007 10:08:52 GMT -5
what no more fight?? *im already sitting here with popcorn and cheap coke. Tsk.*
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Post by jewbird on Oct 26, 2007 2:34:36 GMT -5
It seems that the American dream is reserved for educated foreigners rather than native born Americans. If the US has a need for certain professions, they simply pick out educated foreigners rather than educating or helping Americans. I feel like the US has been turned away from helping alot of Americans, thus one of the reasons for the disappearing middle class. For example, it's becoming ridiculously expensive to pursue degrees for most Americans...while immigrants from 2nd and 3rd world countries can afford these kind of programs due to much cheaper tuition than the US. Hence, if there is any shortage in the laborfoce like special education for example - schools will just hire foreign grads with the credentials. the Department of Education should provide more financial help for students, ESPECIALLY for positions that are being given away to immigrants. And the Department of Ed should also increase the salary for such positions instead of hiring immigrants who would work these positions for much less. I just find it sad that America will just get foreigners to take positions in the workforce that could have been filled by americans. And meanwhile these Americans that could have take the positions have to settle for lower paying jobs or no work at all. Uncle Sam just keeps getting more girls instead of taking care of his previous wives and children... The American Dream is only for foreigners because foreigners will work cheaper. For Mexicans, picking oranges is a step up. Likewise for Filipina nurses and maids. Such a phenomenon helps to keep the lower classes in America from attempting to rise above their station. Not that there are any higher stations left to aspire to or anything.
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