naix
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Post by naix on Jan 8, 2010 13:43:35 GMT -5
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palavore
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I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold posts.
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Post by palavore on Jan 9, 2010 17:24:41 GMT -5
Well, to some some Christians, God's real name is every word in the Bible strung together. Good luck to any other religion trying to hijack that one.
Kidding aside, Muslims could start referring to Muhammad as their Christ (Messiah) when speaking to Christians. In this religious brand war it would an eye for an eye or... an Allah for a Christ.
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Post by bulaklak on Jan 9, 2010 20:58:57 GMT -5
Yes it is shocking. The Malaysians I have met are tolerant and pleasant people. There are crazies everywhere it seems... The argument is kind of ridiculous too. I don't think God would be very happy to find His children fighting over His name. I agree with the court though. The word Allah predates Islam. Arab Christians and Arab Jews who are native Arabic speakers also use the word Allah because it is the Arabic word for God. Kidding aside, Muslims could start referring to Muhammad as their Christ (Messiah) when speaking to Christians. In this religious brand war it would an eye for an eye or... an Allah for a Christ. I do not think any Muslim would refer to Muhammad as their Messiah. He is a prophet like they believe Jesus is a prophet. I think that is the root of the problem here. Some Malaysian Muslims are afraid that people will start confusing the Christian concept of the Trinity with Islamic beliefs. |
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palavore
Full Member
I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold posts.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Posts: 298
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Post by palavore on Jan 9, 2010 23:11:24 GMT -5
I do not think any Muslim would refer to Muhammad as their Messiah. He is a prophet like they believe Jesus is a prophet. I think that is the root of the problem here. Some Malaysian Muslims are afraid that people will start confusing the Christian concept of the Trinity with Islamic beliefs. No non-Arab Christian would refer to God as Allah either. Muslims are probably correct to see this as being specifically aimed at converting members of their flock. Violence is never the proper response--BUT Christians could really do without pissing them off. |
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Post by bulaklak on Jan 10, 2010 1:31:52 GMT -5
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naix
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Post by naix on Jan 10, 2010 2:40:18 GMT -5
I do not think any Muslim would refer to Muhammad as their Messiah. He is a prophet like they believe Jesus is a prophet. I think that is the root of the problem here. Some Malaysian Muslims are afraid that people will start confusing the Christian concept of the Trinity with Islamic beliefs. No non-Arab Christian would refer to God as Allah either. Muslims are probably correct to see this as being specifically aimed at converting members of their flock. Violence is never the proper response--BUT Christians could really do without pissing them off. Incorrect. The local language, especially of the aboriginals to whom the newspaper is catering to, have always used the word Allah in their religious rites, etc. for hundreds of years, dating back to the first christian missionaries of the Portuguese in the 16th century. And when they passed the first verdict, back last century saying they couldn't use the word Allah, what else could they use? I should know. I have spent a few days time living with aboriginals at one point and heard their church service(s). They have always used the word Allah, so why should they have to change? Are their religious beliefs not equal to the Muslims? The use of the word Allah predates any official catholic organization in Malaysia. And for Muslims to get confused about religion by reading the word Allah in a CATHOLIC newspaper, they would have to be pretty darn RETARDED. They also aren't considering it may work both ways, and may confuse Christians. Splendidly educated people we have causing trouble here. As of yesterday that makes 4 firebombed churches. Another interesting thing to bring up is that some Muslim (extremists?) recently stopped a Hindu Temple being built in Malaysia by desecrating the land with a severed cow head being thrown on it prior to construction. ( The cow is holy to Hindus) |
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palavore
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I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold posts.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Posts: 298
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Post by palavore on Jan 12, 2010 19:57:47 GMT -5
^It's not the "aboriginals" or the people of Sarawak and Sabah who got into trouble. It's a priest writing for a Catholic newspaper. Context plays an important role here. Muslims just didn't wake up one morning a decide to go against something that had been commonplace for centuries. A real cultural line has to be crossed for these things to happen. Also, don't have a cow. Minorities in every country usually get the same or worse treatment, including Muslims. I don't think using the word Allah in a theological context is all that necessary to the religious freedom of Catholics--who would prefer to give their mass in Latin. Allah is not a Latin word. The irony should also not be lost that if the Catholic Church had allowed the people of Malaysia a proper translation of the Bible, the word Allah probably would not have into their use. Meanwhile, as this freedom is being upheld in the courts of a predominantly Muslim country of Malaysia, the Swiss have finally taken non-neutral stance regarding their own religious freedoms by banning the construction of Islamic minarets. Now this is only a guess, but I bet that Muslims value their minarets, a distinctive architectural feature of their mosques which broadcasts or represents the call to prayer, much more than Christians value the word Allah in their Bible study. |
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Post by betahat on Jan 12, 2010 20:38:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I find the whole thing ridiculous and surprising. Can't they just follow the lead of every other muslim country (including Indonesia)? How the heck is anyone going to confuse Christianity for Islam? And isn't it understood that Christians are also people of the book and worship the same good, albeit minus the revelations of the Koran?
The only positive thing to come out of this (other than maybe starting a discussion about religious freedoms in Malaysia) is that the firebombings were very amateurish and not the result of some hardened Al-Quaeda affiliated mastermind. Still, I think you have to read the apparent overreaction in the context of Malay society - decades of economic prosperity papering over simmering ethnic tensions that have never been completely eliminated. I think in Singapore they still have laws against proselytizing (and in particular against religious groups like Jehovahs, Mormons, Scientologists) that proselytize heavilty. Which is a recognition of the sensitivity of religious issues in a multicultural (but not completely secular) society, not a sign of backwardness.
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Post by bulaklak on Jan 12, 2010 22:18:26 GMT -5
^It's not the "aboriginals" or the people of Sarawak and Sabah who got into trouble. Here is a case about a woman who was affected by the law banning Christians from using the word Allah. www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60B1E920100112I disagree. It is necessary for the religious freedom of Malaysian Catholics in Sarawak who want to use the word Allah. Without overturning that court ruling it would technically be illegal for some Malaysian Christians to continue practicing their religion the way they do. It follows that if Christians cannot write the word Allah in a newspaper, then they should not be allowed to say the word Allah in a religious context. Personally, I would be angry if the government told me I had to change the wording of my prayers.While banning the word Allah may not seem all that important, what might be banned next? I think it’s good that people are speaking out and questioning ridiculous laws. Yah the Swiss really messed up on that one... all that will do is justify the restriction of rights of non-Muslims in Muslim countries. It’s a bit different though because they are dealing with a growing immigrant community. The Muslims and Christians in Malaysia are all Malaysian citizens and have co-existed (somewhat peacefully?) for years. Then again, it can’t be ignored that this is also a race issue because most of the Muslims are ethnically Malay and most of the Christians are ethnically Chinese and Indian… Nah, It's just election time... :3 |
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naix
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Post by naix on Jan 13, 2010 9:00:03 GMT -5
^It's not the "aboriginals" or the people of Sarawak and Sabah who got into trouble. It's a priest writing for a Catholic newspaper. Context plays an important role here. Muslims just didn't wake up one morning a decide to go against something that had been commonplace for centuries. A real cultural line has to be crossed for these things to happen. Also, don't have a cow. Minorities in every country usually get the same or worse treatment, including Muslims. I don't think using the word Allah in a theological context is all that necessary to the religious freedom of Catholics--who would prefer to give their mass in Latin. Allah is not a Latin word. The irony should also not be lost that if the Catholic Church had allowed the people of Malaysia a proper translation of the Bible, the word Allah probably would not have into their use. Meanwhile, as this freedom is being upheld in the courts of a predominantly Muslim country of Malaysia, the Swiss have finally taken non-neutral stance regarding their own religious freedoms by banning the construction of Islamic minarets. Now this is only a guess, but I bet that Muslims value their minarets, a distinctive architectural feature of their mosques which broadcasts or represents the call to prayer, much more than Christians value the word Allah in their Bible study. Are you a Malaysian? The line was crossed when a court decision that was long since thought unjust was overturned. This did not happen one merry morning when the Catholic priest decided to do so. www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6985866.ece - look. A sikh temple has been stoned now. This is not something you would expect from Malaysia. Also more churches have been attacked since. For your information there are versions of the Bible in Indonesian. Which prior to this, were not allowed into Malaysia. And what is the purpose of the reference to Switzerland? The Swiss are by and large still a very much more open society. Mosques can be built without incredible fuss there, whereas it is difficult to get funding or build churches , temples etc. in Malaysia. Minorities get worst treatment in other countries? I'm sorry. This isn't America. And the minorities here are not so minor. America is 80% white. Malaysia is about 50% Malay. Big difference. And America does not have laws giving advantages to whites like there are laws in Malaysia giving Malays extra 'special' rights. |
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palavore
Full Member
I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold posts.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Posts: 298
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Post by palavore on Jan 13, 2010 23:17:09 GMT -5
I'm not questioning anyone's rights. I'm questioning the substance of these conflicts and the actual value of what is being lost or gained. Losing so much over so little is what I call a bad fight--Pyrrhic victories they are called. Personally, I find many things disagreeable, but I know when to pick my battles and benefit more from it. No, you win on that point. I'm not a member of any of the offending parties. But what I can do is give your outrage (OMA I can't believe this is happening in Malaysia) some global perspective. My purpose was to show that even open societies are not immune to hypocrisy. (OMG, this can also happen in Switzerland) Honestly, this statement puzzles me, but I do recognize the desperate tone. I'm actually the one trying to reason beyond national borders. My point is that there are more fundamental rights being violated by sophisticated modern day surveillance states. Malaysian Muslims are still rather tame in comparison. I'd only wish that this world was so delicate. |
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