Szymon Von Zalyn
Full Member
50% Polish of Prussian descent, 25% Italian, 25% kalmyk, but 100% English.
Posts: 367
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Post by Szymon Von Zalyn on Nov 18, 2007 8:02:59 GMT -5
I have read an article about a documentary called "Jesus Camp".
Has anyone watched this? It sounds quite shocking from the reviews but unlike Mary Whitehouse, I would rather watch it first before I draw any conclusions.
Can anyone help?
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Post by halfbreed on Nov 18, 2007 8:39:15 GMT -5
Help with what? You're either gonna watch it or you're not. ^ That rhymes.
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Post by long on Nov 18, 2007 14:30:48 GMT -5
You mean help like you need to find it online? I watched that online once so I could probably find it for you again.
^ When I speak that doesn't rhyme at all..
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Post by ladystacey on Nov 18, 2007 15:20:04 GMT -5
I saw it, really creeped me out how people don't seem to even know they are brainwashing kids. Watch it, it was pretty good. I rented it at a DVD rental store and I have seen it on DVD rentals online to.
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cm
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by cm on Nov 18, 2007 19:39:28 GMT -5
Are these Christian fundamentalists really that bad for teaching kids not to abort and have pre-marital sex and believe that they are not the center of the universe?
Or is MTV better with their sexual religion, where you are your own god, where you should have sex and drink alcohol to fill in holes in your life, where your worth is based on how visually appealing you are, and how scanty your clothing is?
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Post by Ave` on Nov 18, 2007 19:48:02 GMT -5
I agree with CJF. Better to have a lil religion then to have none at all.
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Post by long on Nov 18, 2007 19:54:02 GMT -5
^ I can certainly sympathize, though perhaps not fully agree, with you here Ms Spades.. but fundamentalists aren't a 'lil religion', they're a whole heap load of it.
CJF: the things you mention are clearly positive things; not everything is positive about fundamentalist Christianity unfortunately, did you watch the movie?
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Post by Ave` on Nov 18, 2007 20:11:12 GMT -5
Long: Im sorry, I wasnt being clear in my previous comment. I wasnt refferring to the "Jesus Camp" video. I was merely commenting loosely on the fact that ppl who practice religion moderately is better off then having no religion at all. These fundamentalists videos is no daubt giving bad impression on religion as whole and makes ppl drop religion completely. And its a sad situation when that happens.
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cm
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by cm on Nov 18, 2007 22:45:54 GMT -5
^ I can certainly sympathize, though perhaps not fully agree, with you here Ms Spades.. but fundamentalists aren't a 'lil religion', they're a whole heap load of it. CJF: the things you mention are clearly positive things; not everything is positive about fundamentalist Christianity unfortunately, did you watch the movie? Sure, not everything was perfect. The Harry Potter line was over the top. Of course, this is an extreme case. But I'll bet $10 that the little kids in that movie end up better citizens than the average kid put in front of MTV and acting like Britney Spears or Paris Hilton.
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Post by long on Nov 19, 2007 0:43:05 GMT -5
Because people without religion often exist without 'meaningful' direction in life... I think that's the best answer at least.
Of course I think many church-goers lack any true religious spirit.. and many agnostic/atheists possess deep 'spiritual' conviction. Yeah, I really shouldn't generalize too much.
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Post by Nikki on Nov 19, 2007 1:00:16 GMT -5
Because people without religion often exist without 'meaningful' direction in life... I think that's the best answer at least. Of course I think many church-goers lack any true religious spirit.. and many agnostic/atheists possess deep 'spiritual' conviction. Yeah, I really shouldn't generalize too much. This is obviously a touchy subject, however I think this is a bit of a dangerous statement to make. I don't think you can say (even generally) that atheists or agnostics exist without 'meaningful' direction in life. That is, unless you consider the afterlife and post-mortem ambitions to be the be-all-end-all of meaningful directions. For all you know their existence is pivoted around their ambitions in life, their job, their family, their career, etc. Saying it's 'meaningless' because it doesn't involve some supposed 'higher' being up there, which has never been proven is rather unfair. Religion's a strange thing. I understand people wanting to have faith and needing some sort of idea as to the purpose of life, and reassurance that something comes after. However, some people find meaning and faith in things other than religion. It certainly doesn't mean they're better or worse off. Just have different ideas of what's important and where they choose to focus their attention and beliefs.
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Post by long on Nov 19, 2007 1:13:52 GMT -5
Nikki, I certainly agree with the sentiments of what you're saying and I made a (weak) attempt to throw in a disclaimer. If you hadn't realized it about me: I consider myself agnostic, and there was certainly a time where I was aggressively atheist (anti-religion), not that I'm proud of that any longer. When I referred to 'meaningful' direction I didn't have the 'afterlife or postmortem ambitions' in mind at all. My basic idea is that agnostic/atheists are most in jeopardy of falling into moral relativism, or even further into nihilism (rejection of all values and meaning). When I say meaningful I suppose I meant living for a purpose (perhaps you could say higher?) outside of one's own narrow self-interest. It's very easy for the religious to find meaning (in everything)... I really don't think we disagree with each other Perhaps I attempting to answer from a religious perspective. p.s. - when I said 'often' in my first post I didn't mean 'usually/generally'.
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Post by Nikki on Nov 19, 2007 1:29:33 GMT -5
No worries. I'm not arguing with you. Just curious as to what you were saying. When you say "moral relativism" what exactly do you mean? If you're an agnostic yourself I'm interested to see how you define this. It's been my experience that those people that have religion forced upon them growing up are the ones more apt to embrace nihilism. They tend to grow up, begin to question things and completely reject the idea of organized religion altogether. I don't know. The idea that only (realize we're talking in extremes here) people who embrace religion are able to live thinking beyond their own self-interest is a depressing one. And from my experience not very true. I also think people who consider themselves religious are just as liable to have crap morals as agnostics/atheists. What's different is how they deal with them. I think what it essentially boils down to is human nature.
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cm
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by cm on Nov 19, 2007 1:44:29 GMT -5
People who believe in God don't always believe in God because they think there will be an afterlife.
They believe in a natural order bigger than themselves.
Read about Hindu cosmology. The stuff was way ahead of its time. It's a belief that there is a larger order in the world than just our own lives. This belief is something larger often humbles people (key word is often).
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Post by long on Nov 19, 2007 1:51:38 GMT -5
I agree with you again Moral relativism to me means believing that each person (or perhaps culture) is free to define their own moral standards and that we really shouldn't try to judge other people or cultures except by the standards that they accept; in other words, there's no universal or objective moral truth (or if there were, there's no way to know it). Nihilism takes the next step, one that I think is logically necessary if the relativists are being honest with themselves, and rejects the validity of all personal and cultural morals. I think that you may be right in saying that those who were raised in religious backgrounds (most Americans) are more likely to go all the way down to nihilism if they reject religion, as the religion was the foundation for their moral convictions. "I don't know. The idea that only (realize we're talking in extremes here) people who embrace religion are able to live thinking beyond their own self-interest is a depressing one. And from my experience not very true." - I didn't mean to suggest this at all That's why I emphasized 'often' not 'usually' in my last comment. But I do think that agnostic/atheists are the most liable to fall into the trap of only living for themselves. Some embrace the notion actually.. ever hear of Ayn Rand (the virtue of selfishness)? I also think people who consider themselves religious are just as liable to have crap morals as agnostics/atheists. What's different is how they deal with them. I think what it essentially boils down to is human nature.- I agree completely. This is why I mentioned that I think that many churchgoers are not truly religious at all. Atheists/agnostics have often thought very deeply about morality and therefore are capable of stronger than average personal convictions. My point was just that they're also the most likely to reject the pursuit of a 'meaningful' existence entirely. edit: this post is addressed to Nikki of course
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