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Post by avax on Sept 30, 2007 23:46:18 GMT -5
I've been turning this around for the better half of the week.
Is the pen really mightier than the sword?
Who's pen?
What's being written?
For who?
When?
Is there a signature? What does a signature mean?
What makes a document authentic?
Why are we caught up with notions of authenticity?
Is a pencil less respectful?
What if I run out of ink?
Am I then a broken sword?
If the pen is mightier than the sword, and the pen is synonymous with words while the sword synonymous with action,
Why then do we place more value in actions than words?
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Post by halfbreed on Sept 30, 2007 23:57:43 GMT -5
Why then do we place more value in actions than words? Because things are easier said than done. |
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Post by Roam'n on Oct 1, 2007 0:57:07 GMT -5
Words must have trustful meaning. That's the whole reason for authenticity. Anybody can say anything, but not everybody is going to say things that are true and worthy of trustful action.
Actions are irrelevant.... it's the ideas behind the actions that are far more powerful.. ideas that are typically justified by connecting it up a societal framework. This framework is just more trusted ideologies connected all the way up to the top.... to either a government's constitution, or even Holy Bible/Koran. All of which (in the end) are just words written by man.
The medium is irrelevant. It never matters whether it's written in crayon, pencil, a web page, or eched in one's memory. People tend to wield a set of ideas that are true unto themselves. But people also tend to wield the sword (action) when the pen (ideas) no longer functions as they thought was true.
And that explains why I think U.S.A. is such a good yet scary country... but that's a whole other soapbox I'll save for later..
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Post by avax on Oct 1, 2007 14:57:11 GMT -5
Roman, I agree that the sword is taken up when there's some disillusionment with the pen although I couldn't have put it as well as you did. Yes, things are easier said than done but if I drew a picture, why would it be worth a thousand words? Why is there more value placed on the picture I did as opposed to words I have written? Or is there.
I didn't think of ideas as separate from actions. They're one and the same for me most of the time. Although I can think of a number of things that have happened that indicate life doesn't always work that way. And for those using second, third, fourth languages sometimes it's not the case that words lack a 'trustful meaning' - just that they might not be so accurate. ..Also I think I know the way your thoughts were veering off too regarding the sword, pen and the US.
I wonder is all hope lost for expressing in actions or words these ideas when ideas are not fully formed? What if we are evolving and these set ideas are never quite concrete? Does that mean all words and actions don't have a 'trustful meaning'?
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tbw
Full Member
Posts: 332
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Post by tbw on Oct 2, 2007 18:00:33 GMT -5
Yes, things are easier said than done but if I drew a picture, why would it be worth a thousand words? Why is there more value placed on the picture I did as opposed to words I have written? Or is there. Just on that topic - humans are very visual beings. Much of our communication when talking is done in conjunction with hand/body gestures to which we can read into. When trying to convey a message or statement with ease and speed a picture can explain everything in a matter of seconds more than an essay of the same subject could. The major disadvantage (to me its a disadvantage) is that the picture is open to interpretation - so while a variety of responses may be approximate to the intended application of the picture it may not carry the complete message such as your written words would. The value of the picture over the words is more situational. When there is something that is so important that it cannot leave room for interpretation, then it is written (contracts, legal documents, etc.) But when something needs to be expressed and can be open to interpretation, then pictures are widely used as the general message is conveyed in a short time (such as with advertising, art, etc.) I wonder is all hope lost for expressing in actions or words these ideas when ideas are not fully formed? What if we are evolving and these set ideas are never quite concrete? Does that mean all words and actions don't have a 'trustful meaning'? That's a cool point. What ideas are ever concrete though. The idea for one individual may not be the same for another. People would like their ideas set in stone, so as to believe in stability, to believe in their way of life. The words of those ideas have 'trustful meaning' to the individuals who believe in them (ie. The 'pen'). This can be much more powerful than fighting others to show your way is 'the way.' (ie. The 'sword'). But sometimes action is needed to ensure the longevity of the written words. When two different ideas [or ideals] collide, then all actions and words from both sides have 'trustful meaning' to either side. Take any conflict in the world as an example of this. |
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Post by Roam'n on Oct 3, 2007 1:21:26 GMT -5
I wonder is all hope lost for expressing in actions or words these ideas when ideas are not fully formed? What if we are evolving and these set ideas are never quite concrete? Does that mean all words and actions don't have a 'trustful meaning'? They never are concrete. A distinct part of human nature is our utilization of semantics to abstract reality. Although there's no creature on earth that communicates as abstractly as humans, all such communications are just an approximation of reality... always open to the errors (and manipulations) of those that created it. Even reality itself is an abstraction of your own perceptions. When you get an idea or thought process in your head, it's up to you to channel it into a something clear and concise. It can be a written word, a sculpture, or a performance. Some people are natural at doing this. Other struggle with it. Even writing this now is taking a while for me.. The thing I try to do is to perceive reality without abstraction. That's a lot harder then it seems, but it can be done... since the core of everything is based on reality. When you do, you just achieve a certain awareness and you're just friggin on. It's really difficult to describe. I've only had it happen a few times in my life. |
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Post by avax on Oct 3, 2007 17:22:09 GMT -5
tbw,
I see how some might feel that way - more subjectivity involving pictures than words. But I'm going to have to veer off and banter the other side.. working with words is incredibly subjective but it also depends on the material. Legal documents are scripted to be written in pre-determined ways of understanding. Meaning there is a specific language within a language (ie. lingo) that works like a code that's more specific than plain ordinary, everyday words. Even then, that's why there's court and the litigation process, jury and a number of other processes appear, whether involving non charter or constitutional laws (the meaning of those are debated to, or tried at least) or not. It's because words simply aren't enough and much is situational. Precedents are recorded in common law but they can also be changed according to society's current culture, beliefs, and even how much religion influences the state. On top of that, I think the everyday words and the words accessible to the masses is what is so subjective - it's the stuff of getaway novels, of magazines, of fictional and even non-fictional material (books and newspapers).
Roman,
"Friggin on" - do you mean moments of lucidity? Yeaaaaaaah.. those are nice. Interesting idea, how you've pointed it to the idea of agency - channeling and having that choice to interpret.
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Post by waywardwolf on Oct 4, 2007 1:52:39 GMT -5
If the pen is mightier than the sword, and the pen is synonymous with words while the sword synonymous with action, Why then do we place more value in actions than words? By the power of Grayskull, she's right! I knew it! The sword is mightier. |
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Post by Ave` on Oct 5, 2007 23:32:53 GMT -5
Ideas and Knowledge spread by writing is more dangerous then the sword. celtriya I think if you read enough history you would come up with more powerful writing (like Karl Marx's) thats able to alter the history while theres very few swords mentioned. Even when the crusaiders raided middle east a long time ago. They had to steal the books and the ones they couldnt bring back they burn and throw into the Black Sea. I hope this helped
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Post by miaim on Oct 6, 2007 3:58:00 GMT -5
I've been turning this around for the better half of the week. Is the pen really mightier than the sword? Who's pen? What's being written? For who? When? Is there a signature? What does a signature mean? What makes a document authentic? Why are we caught up with notions of authenticity? Is a pencil less respectful? What if I run out of ink? Am I then a broken sword? If the pen is mightier than the sword, and the pen is synonymous with words while the sword synonymous with action, Why then do we place more value in actions than words? i think it's just a metaphor: in other words, you can kill the person but not the idea...and the idea can later inspire others to action...Marx would probably be an excellent example of this..... as for the pencil vs. pen: ditto...as writing in pencil can be erazed but not writing in ink....i.e. it's just a metaphor.... of course, the flip side is that documents on paper can be burned....but even then, the ideas may live on....e.g. the bible..... we don't really know who "Jesus" was, nor what he really said or did, tho it is almost certain he was crucified by the Romans for dissent against the Empire.... but his alleged "ideas" still have a powerful influence today...and the same could be said of many others..... imo, in this context, the importance of action vs. words is....irrelevant.... also, an action will, eventually, only be remembered/live on in words....so in the long run, how one is remembered depends on the words used to describe us, as opposed to what we really did or what really happened....tho even that is shaped by different perceptions, usually expressed in words.... as for images: in some cases, such as the Mt. Rushmore carvings, it can say more than a thousand words about the total domination of whites over the Native Americans....all depends on context.... peace |
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Post by Ave` on Oct 6, 2007 10:48:47 GMT -5
Miami you just manage to say what i have jumbled up in my mind ohh so beautifully. I love you :]
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