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Post by jefe on Sept 2, 2006 10:36:18 GMT -5
Jefe, I'm extremely frightened to tell you the truth. Before I was just riding a wave of enthusiasm, with the idea of going to Asia to improve my Mandarin, learning more about my culture, etc. Now, after having gone through the process of submitting my applications to ECNU (still waiting on them) and NSYU (been accepted by them), everything seems a lot more serious and just an arm's stretch away. It has forced me to confront my own fears about going to Asia, which apparently are many. Argh, and I know Taiwan is supposed to be more friendly of foreigners--but I might end up in Shanghai. Either way, I'm going to feel like an outsider. And it'll probably take me a long time to get over that. If I go to Taiwan, I will not have the company of any other students from my university. It'll be myself by my lonesome. 1.) I've never lived on my own or away from my family 2.) I rarely ever travel--ie little contact with foreign countries 3.) I lead a very comfortable life in a small city, full of kind-hearted retirees, renowned for its beautiful flowers!!! I know once I arrive in Asia, I will have a breakdown. lol. Well, Simon, this is the moment of reckoning. I SAW you within hours of your first arrival in Asia and you did not seem to be having any kind of breakdown -- maybe EAN meetups help? Now you went on to Shanghai. After one week, what is the prognosis? Are you still in the excited stage?
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Post by داود on Sept 4, 2006 0:32:43 GMT -5
Yet, I'll bet, like Helen said, that most people will begin missing the Western country they lived in, upon returning to Asia. Not me. I don't miss the USA at all. Well, I miss NYC a *little* bit, but not enough to move back there. I can visit once every 2 years. I think I would feel that way in mainland china -- I would feel more frustrated there. But in HK there are hundreds of thousands of returnees from overseas, most from US and Canada. So, I find them to be close to the right mix of culture for me, esp. those who have work experience in North America or who still have relatives there. Many Asian cities seem to have absorbed a lot of Western Culture to me, esp. in Malaysia, Philippines, and in Macau / HK, not to mention Singapore. I feel like I am in a mixed culture in those places already. I do not feel that way in Mainland China or Japan. I guess I could find it in SF, Sydney and New York, or even Honolulu, but I don't feel comfortable when the Anglo culture is more dominant than the Asian Cultures. Australia esp. feels very Anglo and white to me despite all its first and second generation immigrants. What don't you like in Anglo culture?
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Post by jefe on Sept 4, 2006 2:41:57 GMT -5
If you read closely, I never specifically said that I did not like Anglo culture. Indeed, one reason that I was attracted to HK was its Anglo heritage: - English legal system - Western business practices - English used as a second language. - Many westernized Chinese (and a few semi-sinified Westerners) who have a mix of cultural backgrounds.
I think I would not like being in China for long periods either.
My point was that I feel a bit uncomfortable if the Anglo culture is totally dominating. In HK, I feel it is a mix of Chinese and Anglo culture, so it feels a bit more balanced for me. Of course, it is not ideal either -- it is a bit too segregated.
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Post by داود on Sept 4, 2006 14:29:14 GMT -5
If you read closely, I never specifically said that I did not like Anglo culture. Indeed, one reason that I was attracted to HK was its Anglo heritage: - English legal system - Western business practices - English used as a second language. - Many westernized Chinese (and a few semi-sinified Westerners) who have a mix of cultural backgrounds. That's understandable if your first language is English. Besides, you had it all in the US. I wonder what makes you uncomfortable in Anglo culture.
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Post by Sensei on Sept 5, 2006 9:49:28 GMT -5
Well, Simon, this is the moment of reckoning. I SAW you within hours of your first arrival in Asia and you did not seem to be having any kind of breakdown -- maybe EAN meetups help? Now you went on to Shanghai. After one week, what is the prognosis? Are you still in the excited stage? No breakdowns yet! Though it has been very difficult adjusting to Shanghai. HK would be easier I think. And yes! EAN meetups help, and just knowing people in general wherever you're going. ok, here is the prognosis of my adjustment to Shanghai. Cons: nasty stenches everywhere, stagnant pools of air con leakage, general lack of hygiene, smog, not being able to see the sun ever, bugs, old men horking everywhere, rude taxi drivers, lack of manners in general, having to struggle with the language to do things that I took for granted in Canada, being on the opposite side of the world from friends and family Pros: meeting people from all over the world, shanghai clubs, cheap cost of living, language environment, all the dazzling lights in Shanghai at night, rapidly expanding metro system, having a few EANers here to show me around Yeah... my cons list is looking longer, but the language environment is why I'm here. I'd much rather be in HK long-term though. I find a lot of people here to generally be uncivilized. sorry, sounds really bad and like I have that pompous HK attitude towards mainlanders but yeah... that's my feeling. maybe it will wear off.
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Post by jefe on Sept 5, 2006 23:41:31 GMT -5
Maybe you can expand your "PROS" --> what is good or bad about the language environment and your course. I noticed your comments about Chinese people were all "CONS" and no "PROS" --> your PROS is meeting people from all over the world. I lived in New York City before I settled in HK, so this was a PRO from NY which is not as prevalent in HK.
Do you prefer the people in Canada? Or what did you take for granted in Canada that you realize you cannot take for granted?
I think Shanghai is about the most civilized in all of Mainland China. Maybe you should go to a small town in Guizhou or Shanxi or something and REALLY question how you define "civilized".
Did you ever do a pros / cons of Vancouver? When you go back next, you might have realized that you take things for granted in Shanghai and realize that you have to adjust AGAIN to go back to Canada.
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Post by jewbird on Sept 12, 2006 2:06:40 GMT -5
Sensei's right. The standard of people in foreigners is so much higher than that of locals, they can't be compared sometimes. There are locals who are as good as foreigners of the same level of experience but painted in broad strokes, mainland Chinese are quite often worthless idiots at best and filthy animals at worst.
This is due to the fact that every ethnic Chinese who ever, in 5000 years, honestly felt like they were meant for more than rice-farming left the mainland long before any of us here was born, leaving only 1.3 billion husks of chaff here and also, the horrible influence of the disgusting, corrupt, self-serving, and wicked communist party to f*** things up here even worse.
I believe in promoting development here and that's why things are going to need to change around here.
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Post by jewbird on Sept 12, 2006 2:07:32 GMT -5
I side with the Brits. Gunboat diplomacy was the only way to explain to these dumbs***s what was up.
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Post by saeka on Sept 12, 2006 5:13:12 GMT -5
Im going back to Japan after being in NZ for a looong time so it would be really wierd adjusting to everything lol I have no idea what everyone is saying aha.
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Post by Sensei on Sept 12, 2006 7:45:48 GMT -5
Sensei's right. The standard of people in foreigners is so much higher than that of locals, they can't be compared sometimes. There are locals who are as good as foreigners of the same level of experience but painted in broad strokes, mainland Chinese are quite often worthless idiots at best and filthy animals at worst. This is due to the fact that every ethnic Chinese who ever, in 5000 years, honestly felt like they were meant for more than rice-farming left the mainland long before any of us here was born, leaving only 1.3 billion husks of chaff here and also, the horrible influence of the disgusting, corrupt, self-serving, and wicked communist party to f**k things up here even worse. I believe in promoting development here and that's why things are going to need to change around here. It saddens me because even though Shanghai is the most urbanized city on the mainland, I'm beginning to feel like the people here might be ruder than in the rest of the mainland. My friend who spent 2 summers in Hainan, said everyone was extremely friendly there and striking up conversation with strangers was never a problem. Perhaps this is the typical Mainlander? I don't know. But if Shanghai changes in the next Hong Kong some day--I'll be a happy camper.
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Post by Sensei on Sept 12, 2006 7:59:56 GMT -5
Do you prefer the people in Canada? Or what did you take for granted in Canada that you realize you cannot take for granted? I haven't been in Shanghai long, but I'm inclined to say I much prefer people in Canada. Multiculturalism is so established in BC, and people are really open-minded. NO ONE stares like they do here. and... taxi drivers do NOT roll down their window to hork onto the street. I loved HK and it's likely I'll go there for an exchange before I finish university. But I have to say, Vancouver is still without a doubt the best city I've been to. In some municipalities, it's literally 50% immigrants. And yet it's for the most part a very harmonious society, where most people are eager to learn about each other's cultures. Please don't scare me. Cons for Vancouver? Very few. That place is "god's land" as my colleague once said.
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Post by rob on Sept 12, 2006 9:11:15 GMT -5
I haven't been in Shanghai long, but I'm inclined to say I much prefer people in Canada. Give it some time Simon. It was certainly a rude awakening for me, but I eventually realized that my opinion of a place (irrespective of the filth, disgusting habits, whatever) was largely determined by how far I pushed myself beyond my comfort zones and the ppl I met as a result. Keep doing what you're doing and avoid the tendency to retreat into a shell and surround yourself with cynical expats. Cons for Vancouver? Very few. That place is "god's land" as my colleague once said. Yes, it definitely is God's land. God's people however?.......hmmm..... I think Bono said it best with "you gotta kiss the ground before you can touch the sky"
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Post by Sensei on Sept 12, 2006 9:22:01 GMT -5
Give it some time Simon. It was certainly a rude awakening for me, but I eventually realized that my opinion of a place (irrespective of the filth, disgusting habits, whatever) was largely determined by how far I pushed myself beyond my comfort zones and the ppl I met as a result. Keep doing what you're doing and avoid the tendency to retreat into a shell and surround yourself with cynical expats. For sure, and I haven't met many locals yet to be fair. So I shouldn't be making any pre-mature judgements. I've met LOADS of wonderful mainlanders studying abroad in Canada, so I'm sure they're here too amongst the filth on the street and horking old men/women. I think Victoria has god's people. But I'm obviously biased, haha. It's funny, Rob. Coming to China, I finally appreciate Canada's natural beauty. The first thing I want to do when I get back is go for a camping trip. I might also join greenpeace.
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Post by rob on Sept 12, 2006 9:37:26 GMT -5
I'm sure they're here too amongst the filth on the street and horking old men/women. I think my seminal moment was when an old lady in HK (queens road central - wearing pink pajamas, a weathered/mean look on her face and a certifiable "hoarker"), extended her umbrella to shield me from the rain. It just takes one person to turn a stereotype on its head. I think Victoria has god's people. But I'm obviously biased, haha. heh. Last I checked, most of Victoria were near-death so that's entirely plausible I finally appreciate Canada's natural beauty. The first thing I want to do when I get back is go for a camping trip. I might also join greenpeace. So maybe now you can understand my disappointment at having a week in Vancouver and not going hiking during the global meet!!
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Post by jefe on Sept 12, 2006 11:09:14 GMT -5
I haven't been in Shanghai long, but I'm inclined to say I much prefer people in Canada. Multiculturalism is so established in BC, and people are really open-minded. Simon, I am surprised you got to this stage so fast. Well Simon, how open minded are you? Simon, you have not seen much of China NOR Canada. Well, it was good you stopped in HK first before stepping in mainland China. I am not crazy about China either, but I try to find something interesting about it. I know, it is different reading about a place and actually experiencing it. But soon you will find a place you like to hang out, to exercise, to get a bite to eat, etc. and you should mellow out. Shanghai is also a city of migrants. Many people from the other provinces or the countryside also have to adjust. Maybe you can meet some people, say, from Sichuan or Henan and find out how they feel about Shanghai. There are some Uyghur and Tibetan migrants living in Shanghai too. Maybe you can find out about them. Find out how the Japanese and Koreans feel about being there, not to mention the HKers and Taiwanese. You can try to pick up some Shanghai dialect too and REALLY get to know how Shanghai think and feel. I used to live in the USA, and DID NOT find it to be a harmonious society. Indeed, when my parents got married, it was still illegal in 22 states or so, including the states of Maryland and Virginia which surround Washington, DC. When my family moved into Maryland it was a VIOLENT experience. And that violence continued into my adulthood. To me, HK seems like so much a harmonious society. Please, treat it as an adventure. Be careful. I heard Brits say that about Britain when I first came to HK. And I was not impressed at all with what little I saw of Britain. Somehow, I felt its time and glory were over a hundred years ago. Have you started classes yet? And those people had to get out of their comfort zone to meet you. How about, why don't you give Shanghai people a reason to be impressed with people who hail from British Columbia?
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