Adjusting to Life in Asia

[Sensei]

So as not to further detract from the "culture shift" thread, let's talk about our experiences adjusting to life in Asia--culture, food, hygiene (or lack there of), nightlife, anything.

[Sensei]

jenming said:

I find that in general, Civilized and "Nice" don't necessarily come with each other. Shanghai probably is the most "civilized" place in china, but the people here, are not culturally Nice - in general. There are lots of places in China where the local culture results in people being completely clueless about hygiene, unable to stop themselves from laughing and pointing at foreigners, unable to understand that anyone should think differently than they do.... but they're horribly good-hearted, and actually Nice people. They just don't know any better, and they're not trying to pretend like they know any better. The people in Shanghai frequently know better, but are just constantly trying to protect themselves from other people, so they don't extend any of the graces they know they could.

Funnily enough, I don't really mind the staring unless the person is RIGHT in front of me and keeps at it even after a good 2 second look. But I usually just stare back if that happens.

I'll see how it goes meeting locals. I have some contacts here from my friends back home. Hopefully that'll help me become accepted in their group of friends.

When making local friends, Sensei, my experience has been that you will go through a LOT of people, and make a couple of friends. Low return on investment, but in the end, those friends might be worth it.

Well... what I really want is a local girlfriend. I'm sure i'll make some great local friends here. The contacts I have here are all friends of my friends back home, so I'm pretty certain they'll be awesome people.

Take it easy on the alcohol. your immune system is being exposed to an ENTIRELY new set of bacteria, dust, viruses, etc... It took me many months before my body could start to handle it. Alcohol really lowers your body's ability to field new pathogens.

Damn... I know you're right BUT beer is soooo cheap.

[Nikki]

jenming said:

I find that in general, Civilized and "Nice" don't necessarily come with each other. Shanghai probably is the most "civilized" place in china, but the people here, are not culturally Nice - in general. There are lots of places in China where the local culture results in people being completely clueless about hygiene, unable to stop themselves from laughing and pointing at foreigners, unable to understand that anyone should think differently than they do.... but they're horribly good-hearted, and actually Nice people. They just don't know any better, and they're not trying to pretend like they know any better. The people in Shanghai frequently know better, but are just constantly trying to protect themselves from other people, so they don't extend any of the graces they know they could.

Have you read any Paul Theroux, Jeremy? I just finished reading 'Riding the Iron Rooster' and he seems to say a lot of similar things - you'd probably get more out of it than I did. He makes really shrewd, amusing observations about the people. Incidentally I'm not so sure if I'd want to ride on a train through China after reading that, but he's incredibly interesting (and hilarious).

I've been in Japan for a bit over a month. I'd agree with the statement that civilized and 'nice' do not necessarily mean the same thing. Japan is obviously a civilized country and the city that I'm in isn't the total boonies despite the few odd fisherman sans any teeth that I occasionally run into. But the way the Japanese culture is I'm often left wondering whether people here are genuinely being NICE (which is a sucky word to begin with), or if they are being 'nice' simply for the sake of being nice because that is what they've been taught and programmed to do since the start of time. It's hard to figure out. And important to me, I think, as if someone invites me to go see a movie simply to fulfill protocol I'd rather either a) not go. Or b) go alone. There are certain things that one has to do for the sake of duty/job related things, I suppose. But if a friendship is built upon being nice for the sake of being nice - well, that's not a friendship in my book.

[miss feli]

The only part of Asia I've been to is Saudi Arabia (that I've lived in for more than a month ).
I didn't have too much interaction with the locals though.
All of us "outsiders" were put into secure compounds with hundreds of houses, a mart, a resturaunt, playgrounds and parks, and a swimming pool. Which, for some reason, reminded me of a military base, and was a doozy to try to trick-or-treat. (We only got 1/4 of the houses before we got tired) We didn't have to wear aabiyahs and weren't held by religious rules of Saudi Arabia.

So truthfully, I didn't really have to adjust, except for the fact that we had to get used to not eating in public during Ramadan & getting out of stores or hiding in them during prayer times. ~_~;;

[jenming]

sensei said:

When making local friends, Sensei, my experience has been that you will go through a LOT of people, and make a couple of friends. Low return on investment, but in the end, those friends might be worth it.

Well... what I really want is a local girlfriend.

This should be easy enough. But I think that my previous statement will still apply. You may go through a lot of women (and hey, maybe you might enjoy yourself) before you find a really good connection.

I might just be assuming a lot about what you want out of a girlfriend, though.

jewelnyc said:

Have you read any Paul Theroux, Jeremy? I just finished reading 'Riding the Iron Rooster' and he seems to say a lot of similar things - you'd probably get more out of it than I did.

Never heard of him. But he's on my search list now.

jewelnyc said:

But if a friendship is built upon being nice for the sake of being nice - well, that's not a friendship in my book.

I've had related/similar thoughts for years about the way a lot of friendships work in China. It's a cultural bias that I haven't totally been able to get past...

[jefe]

It may sound strange to you, but I also found people in the USA also NICE for the sake of BEING NICE and not for the sake of BEING FRIENDS. This is very widespread in the South, but I also encountered it out west (eg, Utah, etc.).

I found it less true in places like New York and Boston.

Anyhow, it is different than what they do in China / Japan. In the USA, many people are superficially friendly to strangers, eg, in Atlanta in the course of a single day I could have a dozen people come up to me and say ¡§Hi, howz it goin' ?" And people who are acquainted may say ¡§Let's have lunch¡¨ without really meaning it. At least in Asia, I rarely had people coming up to me to be superficially friendly, unless they are trying to tout something. In fact, I think most Asians do not trust people who are superficially friendly to strangers, but in the USA, people treat this as being aloof or even unfriendly.

But once Asians do make friends with you, then comes a set of reciprocal obligations based on the relationship -- FAVORS. It is not a matter of being *nice* but being a *friend*. In the USA, they are done more on a *contract* basis, whether a simple verbal agreement, or even a formal written document. In HK, there is a mixture of both types as English law is affixed onto a society with a Chinese cultural heritage.

That said, I found it difficult to make friends in the USA with multi-generational Americans. I tended to gravitate to immigrants and foreign students.

Maybe we can discuss the ideas of the difference between SHARING and GIVING. I understand that the word *Indian-giver* occurred when Native Americans were sharing items (eg, blankets) with the Euro colonists when the Euros assumed that they were giving them the items.

[cheeseprata]

I remember the taxi ride from Changi airport feeling miserable at leaving a girlfriend behind and looking at all the concrete around me.

I literally slapped my head and said "what have I done"?

It took two whole years for me to feel really comfortable. In the end it wasn't the location, it was finally meeting like minded people that really allowed my life to take off.

Two years is a long time. I keep getting called "ang moh" (white) when it's very obvious I'm not. I felt more alienated and foreign than I ever did back home. I thought I would be amoungst "brothers and sisters", but I was never made to feel more racially different untill I went to Singapore.

Later, it all changed and I didn't want to leave. I got to do heaps of new things, met amazing people and reshaped my life.

Some of the ideals and values I have picked up shape who I am today in a strong way.

[jefe]

I get the impression that I am the only person in this forum who experienced the similar kind of (*other* *foreign* *outsider* even *creature*) treatment from non-Asians or in non-Asian regions (eg, USA, Canada, Europe) to the (*other* *foreign* *outsider* even *creature* ) treatment from Asians or in Asia. Indeed, after settling in HK, the treatment I got was eerily similar to how people treated me in the USA. --> Your English (Chinese) is very good, how long have you been here in OUR country, do you understand OUR customs (or how are YOUR customs different from OURS). I do feel that there are some people on EAN who get treated as an *oriental* by non-Asians and as a gwei-lo / ang mor / gai jin / farang / putih by Asians, but didn¡¦t anyone feel alienated in the western countries, especially in the ones referred to as *home*? Indeed, if anything, the *alienation* I felt in the USA was even violent at times ¡V the alienation in Asia seems more like a nuisance to me than outright evil.

I often feel that EVERYWHERE treats me like an outsider. So, in this respect, I did not have a unique adjustment to Asia in this regard that I had not already experienced previously already in the USA and other western countries.

I do try to witness and compare how I get treated compared to say, both whites and westernized Asians and even perhaps to other EAs. Things I have noticed:

• Whites are forever FOREIGNERS; westerners of Asian descent are foreigners only if they insist on acting completely like westerners.
  
• Westernized Asians are expected to conform, at least substantially to local ways ; whites are expected NOT to conform. Indeed, westernized Asians can be castigated if they are TOO westernized. But they are much better accepted than EAs if they do try to assimilate somewhat. Assimilation is still largely barred to EAs.
  

For EAs, it really depends if they are classified as white, westernized Asian or local Asian. And classification could change from person to person.

The only advantage I could see was that I could avoid some of the pigeonholing that both whites and westernized Asians get. Once people know me, then I could indeed forge a role for myself and not get castigated for not conforming. Indeed, there is perhaps somewhat less pressure (at least from my experience) for me to conform in Asia than there is for westernized Asians or for whites. But in the USA, I felt strong castigation for non-conformance.

[jericho]

jefe said:

I do try to witness and compare how I get treated compared to say, both whites and westernized Asians and even perhaps to other EAs. Things I have noticed:

• Whites are forever FOREIGNERS; westerners of Asian descent are foreigners only if they insist on acting completely like westerners.
  
• Westernized Asians are expected to conform, at least substantially to loca ; whites are expected NOT to conform. Indeed, westernized Asians can be castigated if they are TOO westernized. But they are much better accepted than EAs if they do try to assimilate somewhat. Assimilation is still largely barred to EAs.
  

It's true in Burma too, and it can be very frustrating and annoying.

[thesa]

jefe said:

I get the impression that I am the only person in this forum who experienced the similar kind of (*other* *foreign* *outsider* even *creature*) treatment from non-Asians or in non-Asian regions (eg, USA, Canada, Europe) to the (*other* *foreign* *outsider* even *creature* ) treatment from Asians or in Asia. Indeed, after settling in HK, the treatment I got was eerily similar to how people treated me in the USA. --> Your English (Chinese) is very good, how long have you been here in OUR country, do you understand OUR customs (or how are YOUR customs different from OURS). I do feel that there are some people on EAN who get treated as an *oriental* by non-Asians and as a gwei-lo / ang mor / gai jin / farang / putih by Asians, but didn¡¦t anyone feel alienated in the western countries, especially in the ones referred to as *home*? Indeed, if anything, the *alienation* I felt in the USA was even violent at times ¡V the alienation in Asia seems more like a nuisance to me than outright evil.

I often feel that EVERYWHERE treats me like an outsider. So, in this respect, I did not have a unique adjustment to Asia in this regard that I had not already experienced previously already in the USA and other western countries.

I do try to witness and compare how I get treated compared to say, both whites and westernized Asians and even perhaps to other EAs. Things I have noticed:

• Whites are forever FOREIGNERS; westerners of Asian descent are foreigners only if they insist on acting completely like westerners.
  
• Westernized Asians are expected to conform, at least substantially to local ways ; whites are expected NOT to conform. Indeed, westernized Asians can be castigated if they are TOO westernized. But they are much better accepted than EAs if they do try to assimilate somewhat. Assimilation is still largely barred to EAs.
  

For EAs, it really depends if they are classified as white, westernized Asian or local Asian. And classification could change from person to person.

The only advantage I could see was that I could avoid some of the pigeonholing that both whites and westernized Asians get. Once people know me, then I could indeed forge a role for myself and not get castigated for not conforming. Indeed, there is perhaps somewhat less pressure (at least from my experience) for me to conform in Asia than there is for westernized Asians or for whites. But in the USA, I felt strong castigation for non-conformance.

I very much liked your post and what you wrote within...
I only know about the situation in Germany versus Korea, but I guess it might be applicable to other Western/Asian countries as well...
I also felt this type of alienation in Germany even though this is the country where I was born and spent most of my life, even though that my father is German and I am holder of a German passport... And even though people in Korea also compliment me on my Korean and ask me where I'm from, I can take this more easily than in Germany, because technically I AM a stranger in Korea. I'm not born there, I only go there once a year and this is the first time now that I came to work... But still having to explain my presence in Korea is more understandable (and bearable) than having to justify or explain my presence in Germany... I don't think that remarks such as "Where are you from?", Why do you speak so well German/Korean?" ... are meant in a discriminating or mean way, I think that people only want to make conversation, however, these comments do subtly suggest to me that I'm a little bit outta place in my home country...

I also think that the treatment I get in Korea is not much different from the treatment I get in Germany.
The life I'm leading now actually doesn't differ a lot from the life I led while being in Germany. Of course there are differences but in terms of how I'm being treated, there's not much of a difference...

And like you said: A white person will forever be seen as a foreigner, but overseas Koreans or half-Koreans can be accepted as Koreans (uri nara saramdeul) IF they want to and IF they are willing to blend in with the crowd.... speaking the language, eating the food, knowing how to act on certain occasions... blablabla...

But this is also true for me: if I saw a half-Korean who grew up in Korea and would come to Germany and would not be able to speak German, I would take him as a Korean person only...
On the other hand, if there were a half Korean grwoing up in Korea, who would know some things about Germany and who could speak German, I'd take him as both...

[Sensei]

There are tons of nice local people here on the mainland. I shouldn't have doubted Shanghai! ;D I think I will have a hard time adjusting back to Canada now. haha, weird how a week or two can change your perception 180 degrees.

[yongfook]

sensei said:

There are tons of nice local people here on the mainland. I shouldn't have doubted Shanghai! ;D I think I will have a hard time adjusting back to Canada now. haha, weird how a week or two can change your perception 180 degrees.

A change in culture brings with it a slow shift in perception that comes in stages. This is known as "culture shock" and it has both a positive side and a negative side.

2 weeks is still very much in the initial, positive stage of culture shock ("honeymoon" period). It is just as likely that your view on Shanghai will change another 180 degrees, if you were to stay another month, or year, or start working there.

I have some excellent stories of "extreme" culture shock cases from the various expats I know...

More on culture shock:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_shock

Whenever I hear foreigners whining about the culture they are failing to live in harmoniously, I put it down to culture shock. It's much easier than actually discussing the issue with them. Some people though, are far better equipped at dealing with the pressures living in an entirely different culture can bring. I hate to generalise but I have found that the biggest complainers tend to be Americans. Not sure why.

It could be because of the culture they are brought up in - it kind of teaches many Americans to have this dogmatic, zero-sum "right or wrong" attitude to everything around them. So you get Americans exclaiming "gee why do they do that?!?!" and the Brits saying "well that's just the way they do things, innit". I know, I know - massive generalisation.

It could also have something to do with the fact that Britain is a giant s***hole so anywhere else is a step up and we're just glad to be out.

[telliecoin]

I feel weird when I go back to Malaysia and again when I come back to Melbourne. There's a possibility that I don't really belong in either place. I guess there are always differences that will continue to shock and surprise you despite how well you think you know the place.

[Micha]

^ Really? I thought Malaysia especially is one place where, although you're welcomed, you're constantly questioned and scrutinised about your origins. For example, when I went to Japan there was definitly less of a stigma surrounding foreigners, instead of wanting to please them (foreigners) all the time, they most likely wanted to slap them for smoking where you weren't allowed to smoke and letting their phones ring on the train.

[telliecoin]

^ true when I was in highschool there I got into a bit of s*** because I wasn't supposed to have dyed hair as much as my mom came in with her own light brown hair and said my hair was naturally light brown I had to dye it black.. and someone sed who's gonna believe that she has real light brown hair lol... but oh well that's highschool.. nah I think it's more like just the diference in the weather and the environment that is a bit hard for me to adjust to.. I break out in rashes because my skin is so sensitive to the weather changes so it takes me some time to adapt... in a physical way anyway... mentally I think i'm still doing fine it's a bonus to be very random your mind bends in spectacular ways