western martial arts

[penguinopolipitese]

often we assume that asia was the only place with a martial arts history, but actually europe had its own interesting fighting arts as well...


bartitsu - a kind of early 1900s british jeet kune do drawing from jujitsu, wrestling, fencing, savate, etc....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu



single stick - something like european kendo fought with wooden sticks... even Teddy Roosevelt used to practice it

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_stick



savate - maybe could be called french kickboxing


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savate



Jogo do Pau - a kind of staff fighting practiced in portugal

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogo_do_Pau

[penguinopolipitese]

Pankration - "all powers" the original ancient greek mixed martial arts. Probably quite close, for all intents, to modern UFC fights.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

[straylight]

Of course, there's western styled ring boxing to add in the mix.... A lot of people don't realize this, but Bruce Lee was a huge fan of it (especially Ali's butterfly/bee routine). That's where he got the hit n run hopping around thing from, not anything from Asia.

Also, there's Capoeira.

I think Europeans are more interesting on the weaponry side of things though. Sword fencing, for one. Sword and shield tactics from the Roman era are unique too.

And last, but not least, Puerto Rican switchblade fighting. Watch out for those guys

[cm]

Hell, even good ole fashioned Greco Roman Rasslin should be considered a Martial Art in my book

[betahat]

My understanding was that some of the Asian martial arts like Karate originated among peasants who were not allowed to own swords or other weapons of the samurai and other elite (and let's face it, you would have to be pretty good in Karate to have much of a chance against a bunch of trained swordsmen). I always wondered why more unarmed fighting styles didn't originate in the West or other areas of the world.

I think Boxing and Wrestling have always been the main styles of fighting in the West - for some reason kicking is not as favored. That seems to be the main difference between Eastern Martial Arts and Western Martial Arts. Many of the Western martial arts cited above are very recent 19th or 20th century inventions and hence were already influenced by the Asian martial arts.

I think the most interesting question is why the kick was never favored in Western unarmed combat styles, while it is central to many Eastern styles. I don't really have any theories on this one.

[waywardwolf]

^ That savate style, Penguin mentioned, originated from bored sailors grabbing onto ropes in rough waters and kicking each other senseless back in the day. So that's one kick happy western art at least.

[straylight]

The kick was a big part of the "Pirate Fighting Style", I think.

Kick to the nuts, and bringing a gun to a swordfight, that is. Total staples of a scurvy ridden sonofabitch.

[Dirt]

savate is very nice and also sambo, sambo is the best i think for western martial(russia considered western??) im also a big fedor fan that is why i like sambo.

also the most deadly martial art for killing is kali we had summer training for knife in kali even kids are taught it for self defence. krav maga is also good but imo not as good as kali, basics of kali is very simple to understand and straight to the point.

[penguinopolipitese]

yeah but sometimes it's kind of lame how they do the whole respect for the art thing. Like taking some things too literally and not thinking about the meaning.

Like when I visited one friend's karate class they had them thanking for the lesson in japanese at the end. All that is, is reciting syllables.

Same with instruction. I think a good instructor will tell you to experiment and be yourself to an extent...

[hilary]

I have a lot of respect for western martial arts. Particularly boxing, sambo, and capoeira. Of the three, I've only studied boxing and capoeira (3 years of boxing, 1 year of capoeira) and I found them to be extremely capable ways of fighting. Savate has always interested me, but I don't know much about it, and there's no schools in the area.

I think I have some kind of stubborn and contrary mindset. I always kind of root for the underdog in the east vs. west MA discussions. When I was younger, MMA didn't exist, so I was drawn to boxing and western fencing. I always wanted to see British fencers beat Chinese Jian masters. I always wanted to see well-trained boxers knock out the mythical little chinese guy. Now that everyone's all about BJJ, Sambo, and western kickboxing, I've been studying chinese internal arts for the last 2 years. I swear, I can't make up my mind.

In the end, I believe any practitioner of any art should be able to compete or fight with a comparably sized practitioner of any other art on an equal level if they've really dedicated themselves to physical conditioning, are able to capitalize on exposed weaknesses, and adapt to unfamiliar techniques or situations. Your arts are a collection of techniques and tools; in the end, it's always going to be you in the fight. You fight the opponent, not his art.

[thekrez]

Jun 25, 2008 16:08:50 GMT -5 @straylight said:

Of course, there's western styled ring boxing to add in the mix.... A lot of people don't realize this, but Bruce Lee was a huge fan of it (especially Ali's butterfly/bee routine). That's where he got the hit n run hopping around thing from, not anything from Asia.

Also, there's Capoeira.

I think Europeans are more interesting on the weaponry side of things though. Sword fencing, for one. Sword and shield tactics from the Roman era are unique too.

And last, but not least, Puerto Rican switchblade fighting. Watch out for those guys

As someone whos done boxing on and off for about 8 years now I have to say Bruce Lee's admiration is well deserved for the sport. I also knew he was a big fan of it and reading some of his notes on JKD you can see how heavily influenced he was by it.

[hilary]

Jul 12, 2008 17:32:05 GMT -5 thekrez said:

Jun 25, 2008 16:08:50 GMT -5 @straylight said:

Of course, there's western styled ring boxing to add in the mix.... A lot of people don't realize this, but Bruce Lee was a huge fan of it (especially Ali's butterfly/bee routine). That's where he got the hit n run hopping around thing from, not anything from Asia.

Also, there's Capoeira.

I think Europeans are more interesting on the weaponry side of things though. Sword fencing, for one. Sword and shield tactics from the Roman era are unique too.

And last, but not least, Puerto Rican switchblade fighting. Watch out for those guys

As someone whos done boxing on and off for about 8 years now I have to say Bruce Lee's admiration is well deserved for the sport. I also knew he was a big fan of it and reading some of his notes on JKD you can see how heavily influenced he was by it.

He was really into western fencing as well.

[straylight]

Yep, I think (recall?) that he thought that footwork was one of the things lacking in a lot of Asian styles, so Fencing was admired as much as boxing.

Interestingly enough, he didn't like kickboxing so much though (because bringing the legs up too much slows you down....he didn't like kicking a lot in general.. It was Chuck Norris who suggested he do it for the movies, because it looked cool lol). What he got out of Muay-Thai were elbow and knee smashes.

Anyhow, I think the dude could still dominate modern MMA, even if he was put up against heavier opponents -- just because of the footwork. Because he moves. That's the key to two of the greatest fighters we've ever seen.

Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of current fighters rock, but they trade too many punches, like it's a hockey fight or something -- which, in turn, makes it such a natural stage for the ones who can lock in and grapple, which, in turn, is what dominates the sport so easily since the UFC started back in the Gracie days. Put a powerful, but elusive guy in the ring like Ali or Lee, and they'd have a lot more wins than losses imho.

If you have time (8 minutes), watch this. Lee had a reel of this fight. One of his friends said he used to sit around and watch it over and over again.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU9mG7io_mI

It really is a thing of a beauty (and supposedly, Cleveland Williams was no stooge..considered the hardest hitter of the era, moreso than Frazier, Liston, or Foreman).

[straylight]

Hilarious