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Post by juancarlos on Aug 19, 2008 2:30:31 GMT -5
They weren't desrespecful to anyone, just tasteless... and all this "political correctness" is silly as I wrote above. I suppose if you never really had other people make fun of you because of the way your eyes look, then it may be hard to see the Spanish basketball team's pose as racist or racially insensitive (pun intended). You know, I'm actually quite in favor of the present "political correctness" in society. I mean not too long ago, it was "politically correct" for blacks to go to separate schools from whites, to sit in the back of the bus, to be harassed at voting booths, etc., etc. Heck, in South Africa as recently as the late 1980s, it was PC to imprison someone for 27 years for seeking equality for all.
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Post by juancarlos on Aug 19, 2008 2:43:48 GMT -5
^People do need to be educated culturally. As a EA even liberal educated 'progressive' thinkers make offensive, insulting, or hurtful 'racial' comments. Then like the Spanish, sometimes get defensive and not even apologize for the mistake, confusion, or whatever. Other times, they just look so confused oblivious to why it was 'racist.' Then I'm confused because they did something obviously racist but they don't think so. So, Spanish people have to be "educated" that making monkey gestures and noises directed at black players is racist? Is that what you're suggesting?
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Post by davidbleo on Aug 20, 2008 0:25:01 GMT -5
^People do need to be educated culturally. As a EA even liberal educated 'progressive' thinkers make offensive, insulting, or hurtful 'racial' comments. Then like the Spanish, sometimes get defensive and not even apologize for the mistake, confusion, or whatever. Other times, they just look so confused oblivious to why it was 'racist.' Then I'm confused because they did something obviously racist but they don't think so. So, Spanish people have to be "educated" that making monkey gestures and noises directed at black players is racist? Is that what you're suggesting? So, is now every Spaniard like that? Just because of some morons. Ok, many football fans are racist, there are large groups of skinheads among them... and it doesn't matter what you do, they won't change their mind and it's quite hard to do something, just to ban them from the stadiums but it's hard to detect them. Another reason is that they are so stupidly die-hard fans that they insult the other team's players where they know it hurts and yell at them to distract them. And really, people need to see the intention... in law, as far as I know, in many first world countries... intention is an important factor to judge someone's actions. And there was no f***in' bad intention in what those guys did. Therefore, I still think that if someone gets upset or angry, he/she needs help... 'cause they're quite over-sensitive. And finally, if you start with this "political correctness", you cannot stop it at a good point... 'cause there's already a precedent when some group ask for something like the change of historical monuments 'cause they hurt some group's sensitivities. Then, "political correctness" becomes a burden on freedom.
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Post by juancarlos on Aug 20, 2008 2:38:10 GMT -5
So, Spanish people have to be "educated" that making monkey gestures and noises directed at black players is racist? Is that what you're suggesting? So, is now every Spaniard like that? Just because of some morons. Ok, many football fans are racist, there are large groups of skinheads among them... and it doesn't matter what you do, they won't change their mind and it's quite hard to do something, just to ban them from the stadiums but it's hard to detect them. Another reason is that they are so stupidly die-hard fans that they insult the other team's players where they know it hurts and yell at them to distract them. And really, people need to see the intention... in law, as far as I know, in many first world countries... intention is an important factor to judge someone's actions. And there was no f**kin' bad intention in what those guys did. Therefore, I still think that if someone gets upset or angry, he/she needs help... 'cause they're quite over-sensitive. And finally, if you start with this "political correctness", you cannot stop it at a good point... 'cause there's already a precedent when some group ask for something like the change of historical monuments 'cause they hurt some group's sensitivities. Then, "political correctness" becomes a burden on freedom. David, You still don't get it. If person A has gone through their life being made fun of because of their eyes, and then you have the Spanish team making the same gestures, do you think that person A is being overly sensitive if they get offended? Do you think person A "needs help"? Oh, and thanks for agreeing with me that most Spanish people know intuitively that making fun of someone because of their race is in fact being racist, and do not need to be "educated" in that regard. JC
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Post by davidbleo on Aug 20, 2008 4:12:21 GMT -5
Sorry, I misunderstood that point... obviously not everyone needs to be educated.
But still, I think that the intention matters a lot here. If someone has gone through the situation of people making fun of him/her because of his/her eyes... this person still can see the difference in the intentions...
And still I see some danger in "political correctness" 'cause it's near to self-censorship, then censorship... and so on. Here, we're talking about something really silly that in my opinion doesn't really affect anyone (the only victims of their own stupidity are the Spanish). But still I see the chance that with this kind of thought anything that doesn't fit the mainstream way of thinking can be "censored". I've seen that in Europe, especially among young people, some ideas like to be against abortion are now perceived as "politically incorrect" and they'll think that anyone with that idea is an ignorant.
So, again, this issue is really silly, but I don't like the idea of people having to be "politically correct". I'd prefer that there were more tolerance to anyone's behavior and ideas (and people should also use some common sense to judge other's intentions).
If we start labeling "politically incorrect" anything that offends someone, then rap and hip-hop is offensive to women and even to human intelect, Speedy González is offensive to mexicans. Then rap and hip-hop should be labeled politically incorrect 'cause it's sexist... and Speedy González too 'cause it's racist.
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Post by turboman on Aug 20, 2008 7:10:09 GMT -5
Bloody racist Spics, and I know exactly what they'd be thinking about us right now (being racist myself), they'd be thinking something along the lines of: "Look at these half-Chink mongrels, posting about being Eurasian and their identity, they think they're so special don't they..." Yeah that's right Spaniards, ya damn f***in' right we're special
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Post by davidbleo on Aug 20, 2008 14:24:37 GMT -5
Yeah... all of them are lurkin' at this forums right now!!!! XD
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Post by dapper on Aug 20, 2008 15:20:28 GMT -5
yes. I don't know if they have the definition of hatred to their racist gesture, but it's not something that should be acceptable. And it's not just Spain. There've been a number of slant-eye gestures flashed by a few Latin countries this Games.
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Layla
New Member
Posts: 43
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Post by Layla on Aug 20, 2008 20:11:09 GMT -5
yes. I don't know if they have the definition of hatred to their racist gesture, but it's not something that should be acceptable. And it's not just Spain. There've been a number of slant-eye gestures flashed by a few Latin countries this Games. yeah Argentina the other one I know of Argentine Women's Soccer Players Are Latest Spanish-Speaking Group Of Olympians With "Slant-Eyes" Picsmachochip.com/2008/08/why-oh-why-argentinian-women-s.php
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Post by miaim on Aug 20, 2008 23:58:21 GMT -5
Sorry, I misunderstood that point... obviously not everyone needs to be educated. But still, I think that the intention matters a lot here. If someone has gone through the situation of people making fun of him/her because of his/her eyes... this person still can see the difference in the intentions... No they can't - or maybe they can... Since people who've been subjected to the eye-pulling says it's racist but those doing, and defending, the eye-pulling 'claim' they did not have racist intentions... hmmmmm... Think about it...and what Marie (or Hapaicantremembertherestofherusername) said about eye-pulling betraying much more deep-rooted, latent racism... Because one has to wonder: how the f*** can one not know it's considered racist to pull eyes at Asians? !!!!! Which, obviously, renders moot the insistence on assuming benevolent intentions expressed after reprimand.... Why should we from people who make excuses about monkey chanting and throwing bananas at black football players? The people who do it, and those who defend it, also claim they have no racist intentions....you think we should believe and excuse them too? FYI: don't think the Spanish should be banned - but they can't complain if it confirms impressions and suspicions that it is acceptable to express casual racism in Spanish society... Assuming they had any doubts after all the monkey chanting business.... peace
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Post by davidbleo on Aug 25, 2008 16:17:58 GMT -5
Yeah... and once we have that bastard's name... I'll go there and shoot him on the face! He's so racist!
XD
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Post by Pushnpull on Aug 29, 2008 13:21:59 GMT -5
Currently I am taking private Spanish lessons with a young man from Madrid who is here for school. We got into a very good discussion about it and he stated a few surprising things. He spouted the "it's an affectionate gesture & a sign of appreciation. " I almost throttled him.
I explained that for Asians raised in the West it is anything but. In fact no one who has ever done that gesture towards me has followed it up with a "hello" or " want to be friends?"
Usually it's followed by "ching, chong, chang" and laughter before they turn away still laughing.
Really, has anyone ever had something good follow this gesture? None of my friends or ex-boyfriends have ever used this to introduce themselves to me. What bs.
When I explained the gesture is never (at least from my experience) friendly, it's a mockery of physical traits and I told him about my school yard experiences he finally had an "a-ha" moment .
Though he did ask whyI was upset because I didn't have Chinese eyes. I feel my eyes if not my whole physcial features are a giveaway that I'm part Asian but my Spanish teacher thought I was South American Lol.
I told him that I as a Filipina- American feel kinship with other Asian people and a sleight against them is an insult against me.
It was actually a great convo. We did it completely in Spanish.
Though I did learn something else surprising. When I first met my Spanish tutor he thought I was from South America. When I told him I my mother was from the Philippines he asked where it was.
My jaw almost dropped. Didn't he read his own history or have the Spaniards forgotten all the places they colonized?
When I asked him to draw where he thought it was. He ended up putting it in South America where Peru should have been.
I almost died laughing. I quickly drew him a map to show him that it was in Asia. There were a few other countries he was very ignorant about as well.
My Spanish tutor is spending a year here in the states and will be completing his dual degrees in business and economics.
Scary that he doesn't know geography. That might be very important in the business world! They must be giving passing grades like candy at his university.
And people say Americans are dumb. Good thing my tutor has looks to carry that not so smart brain.
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Post by juancarlos on Aug 29, 2008 14:52:11 GMT -5
Elphaba,
I am not surprised anymore at the ignorance of some Spaniards. Heck, I even had discussions with them since they argued that the Philippines was a "province" of Spain, not a colony. Big difference there!!!
JC
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Post by Pushnpull on Aug 29, 2008 15:53:20 GMT -5
I hate to say it, but I really wondered at the sheer stupidity of my college educated tutor and hoped it was just him and not representative of his country. (I can only imagine those who don't have degrees) Now the actions of el equipo de baloncesto de España is starting to confirm my suspicions.
We also had a great conversation about sterotypes and he told me one of his was that asians were short. LOL. He's 5'6 by the way and short by American standards. Definately short even by Asian-American standards.
(I have to laugh now when I hear Filipino people who are tall say they get their height from their Spanish ancestors. I've met my tutors Spanish friends who are also here studying and they are all short. Maybe some Filipinos are short because of the Spanish gene.)
When he said that I called up one of my Filipina girlfriends who is dating this Korean guy who is a good 6 ft tall and has lots of tall and average height asian men/women friends. In fact I'm the halfer and I'm the shortest of the crew! I also have never drunk milk as a child or adult and really do believe diet may play just as much of a role as genetics...anwyays I asked when they were all going out for karaoke again and invited my little Spanish tutor along.
We all went to this Karoke place in Chicago and rented a room where my little Spanish tutor was squeezed in with all us Asian folk.
I'm sure he spent the entire night feeling like a midget. He even told me how tall everyone was. (and some of the Asian guys there were only 5'7, 5'8!) I told him that's how Asians are made here, Lol.
Anyways, I feel I have sufficiently schooled him. He can go back to Spain telling tales of giant Asians in America.
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Post by juancarlos on Aug 29, 2008 21:17:05 GMT -5
Elphaba,
I think that's sad. This reminds me of an African-American intern that we had. I had asked her to make copies of the documents of our Spanish clients, and then I left the room. When I returned, our intern looked upset and she told me privately that she didn't want to continue making copies because our Spanish clients (who were in the room) made her feel like a servant. So, I ended up making the copies myself.
JC
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