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Post by juancarlos on Nov 9, 2007 8:40:49 GMT -5
So you do not oppose the practice of prison rape, Zoff? Well, should we might as well let the guards participate in that? Should family members be permitted to view these rape attacks for their own satisfaction and to satisfy their need for "proportionate justice"? I mean family members are permitted to view executions in some cases, right?
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Post by juancarlos on Nov 9, 2007 8:55:48 GMT -5
You didn't answer all my questions, Zoff.
Oh gosh, I think I'm gonna throw up now.
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Post by Ave` on Nov 9, 2007 9:14:00 GMT -5
emm..my baby brother died because of a misjudge by a doctor. He was send to a bigger hospital too late. He died in the ambulance in my moms arms. The doctor got off the hook but my mom got to slap him in the face before my father took hold of her.
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Post by juancarlos on Nov 9, 2007 9:18:43 GMT -5
emm..my baby brother died because of a misjudge by a doctor. He was send to a bigger hospital too late. He died in the ambulance in my moms arms. The doctor got off the hook but my mom got to slap him in the face before my father took hold of her. You my deepest sympathies, MDG. So, what do you think would have been the most appropriate penalty in your family's case, if I have permission to ask?
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Post by juancarlos on Nov 9, 2007 9:22:31 GMT -5
Oh, yeah, sorry, missed that one. Well if it's not part of the intended sentence then no they shouldn't watch. If it were the case that someone was sentenced to such a punishment, then I don't see why it should be treated differently to an execution. Yes they should be able to watch if they wished. Truth be told I think your opinions are laudable, I just don't think that they work in practice. You're playing by one set of rules, and they are playing by another. I know I'll never convince you of my views on this matter, likewise you will never convince me of yours. Each has it's merits and its drawbacks. How boring would it be if we all just sat here and agreed with one another? Well, you didn't answer the question about whether guards should be able to participate if they wished. Are you trying to pick and choose my interrogatories?
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Post by juancarlos on Nov 9, 2007 9:38:58 GMT -5
Well, let me make my question more direct. If you were a prison guard or supervisor and you had orders to implement this kind of punishment, would you do it?
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Post by juancarlos on Nov 9, 2007 9:44:06 GMT -5
No. I can't even kill a mortally wounded mouse. I wouldn't take a job like that. Exactly. And what kind of people do you think would be lining up for prison guard positions like that?
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Post by cjsdad on Nov 9, 2007 9:51:02 GMT -5
@jc-- Agreed. Mistakes are made in the realm of criminal justice. We need to focus on THIS CASE. In this case the facts ARE NOT in question. He is GUILTY. CONFESSED. DNA, all evidence everything says he did it. Hell, HE said he did it. Therefore I think the death sentence escapes the slippery slope of the possibility of an innocent man dying for a crime he didn't commit. In lieu of the death penalty, the less "savage" Oz has given him life in prison at the expense, among others, of the very victims he stole the most precious possession from....their daughter.
MY consolation, if I was that little girl's daddy would be knowing he was living a miserable existence in the stripey hole.
Yeah, I aint Ghandi.
I never said I was.
I guess my overall opinion is, the death penalty should be reseved for cases just like this. Absolutely not the least bit of doubt about the fact pattern.
Since you live in Chicago I'm sure you are quite familiar with the death penalty debate that has been going on here for awhile.
@mdg... Comparing a doctor doing his/her best and making a horrible mistake to a demonic child molester/murderer is hardly worth my time. Intent, my misguided dear, intent.
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Post by juancarlos on Nov 9, 2007 10:08:18 GMT -5
People made of sterner stuff than I am. As long as they act within the law, does it matter what kind of person they are? Sterner people than you, huh? You know why you wouldn't do it? Because it sickens you, as would any other average human being. And what are those supervised prison rape guidelines/laws be that you alluded to? Would there be some kind of threshold level of pain? What kind of prison guards you would have? How about sadistic people who would love to experience raping another man? Or men? Only this time, it would be your tax dollars providing them salaries and benefits, and with the full backing and endorsement of the state.
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Post by juancarlos on Nov 9, 2007 10:54:34 GMT -5
CJ's Dad,
I do not have any position yet on the death penalty, and that's a completely separate issue.
However, I just cannot endorse prison rape as part of prison punishment. To me, prison rape is torture and is simply unacceptable form of "punishment" even against the most vile of criminals. That's the difference between you and I: I still see the worst criminal as a person, even if they don't deserve to be seen as one.
If I were a parent to the victim, I suppose I would still hold out hope ... that somehow this criminal over the long years of reflecting on his passing years in prison would finally realize the tremendous pain and loss he had caused in others' lives and start feeling heavy remorse. I just don't see how prison rape would bring them to that point. In fact, it would just make them more hardened.
The memory of my daughter will not be served by torture of her rapist and murderer. Call me naive or idealistic, but that's where I stand.
JC
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Post by juancarlos on Nov 10, 2007 9:08:16 GMT -5
And what is a the threshold for a "normal" rape? Who would determine that level: a Mother Teresa or an Adolf Hitler? How would you even define a "normal" rape?
And if guards will not be doing the raping, who would? How does one rape in a "professional manner"?
With regard to the character of the guards, well I suppose you also wouldn't care if a day care school teacher has a sexual attraction to children not yet acted upon or if a bank treasurer is a secret compulsive gambler. After all, so long as they're doing their jobs "professionally". So, no point in doing character reference checks after all?
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Post by juancarlos on Nov 10, 2007 9:41:37 GMT -5
Of course you can't police people's thoughts. However, isn't it also possible for them to speak about it, even if they don't act on it? So, speaking of theoretical scenarios, if you're interviewing someone for a day care job and they vocalize to you that they actually have an unrealized sexual attraction to children, but in all other respects is qualified for the job, would you hire them? Let's also assume that in this theoretical scenario, one of your young relatives will be at that person's classroom, and you won't be there at all to supervise.
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Post by juancarlos on Nov 10, 2007 10:32:49 GMT -5
So, you wouldn't hire that particular day care candidate? Let me remind you of your reply #36 where you further expounded on my teacher analogy, and had no objections then until my final questions in post #37.
And of course, when you hire a teacher to teach, you get the whole person. You can't separate their character from their skills. I don't see how their enjoying teaching makes a difference if they do have sexual attraction to kids.
So, if you don't like my analogy, give me yours to make your point.
As far as the executioner, would you hire him if he were an accused (but unconvicted) serial killer? He was tried, but the evidence didn't overcome reasonable doubt. Assume again that he's highly qualified and that the law does not exclude people with acquittals from being hired for the position. Assume also that you will be his supervisor and will work with him closely and alone during the night shifts.
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Post by long on Nov 10, 2007 23:07:33 GMT -5
\ If I were a parent to the victim, I suppose I would still hold out hope ... that somehow this criminal over the long years of reflecting on his passing years in prison would finally realize the tremendous pain and loss he had caused in others' lives and start feeling heavy remorse. I just don't see how prison rape would bring them to that point. In fact, it would just make them more hardened. The memory of my daughter will not be served by torture of her rapist and murderer. Call me naive or idealistic, but that's where I stand. JC - I've slept on this thread, but now reading through it I'd like to give props to JC for doing a better job of expressing what I would have liked to than I could have. Yup, revenge solves nothing, in fact it makes the world a worse place by multiplying the evil. State sanctioned 'legal' evil is still evil. Revenge evil is still evil. If the world is ever going to learn to be good it certainly won't be through vanquishing evil with evil.
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Post by Ave` on Nov 11, 2007 1:02:08 GMT -5
If the world is ever going to learn to be good it certainly won't be through vanquishing evil with evil. Which reminds me of the infamous war in Iraq. Taking out Saddam by war where millions lost their live is not exectly a campaign of peace. Rather multiplying the evil in this world.
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