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Post by Micha on Aug 16, 2007 11:20:48 GMT -5
The more I think about how long I'll have to remain in the UK to further my studies, the more insane I feel I'm becoming. For those who are or have worked in Asia but originally grew up elsewhere, how on Earth did you get to where you are or were? What degree did you take and were they specific to your country of residence? E.g. Engineering with Chinese
Did you go to Asia with the intention of finding work there or were you re-located there for work purposes? And what caused you to go?
Are the language barriers a severe obstacle and being EA (or anything but full Asian) what was it like integrating with your collegues? Meeting new people and original funding?
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Post by Sensei on Aug 17, 2007 0:52:28 GMT -5
Great thread, Michelle! I want answers too as I'm going need to start looking for work in Shanghai soon, for when I go back in May (fingers crossed). I guess the kind of degree you might want to pursue might depend on where in Asia you're interested in too. I know the financial sector is growing pretty quickly in Shanghai, so I might end up getting into that.
I have had friends working at foreign companies operating in China, and a lot of the employees have okay English but definitely plenty of opportunity to use Chinese if you want to.
But hey maybe you don't even want to go to China. Where are you interested in?
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Post by yongfook on Aug 17, 2007 6:04:31 GMT -5
Good thread. I think there are a few of us on EAN, working in Asia who are originally from elsewhere, such as Helen. Here's my timeline since leaving the UK in 2002: 2002 - Teacher, JET programme (a teaching exchange system for Japanese public schools) in rural Kyushu (southern Japan) 2005 - Design Engineer, a small design agency in Tokyo 2006 - Webmaster, medium-sized investment firm in Tokyo 2007 - Lead Developer & Webmaster, small startup in Tokyo And now I'm about to leave behind the salaried life and start my own IT consultancy in Tokyo, but with a view to expand business activities to Singapore in the future. I'm quite happy For those who are or have worked in Asia but originally grew up elsewhere, how on Earth did you get to where you are or were?Although I enjoyed myself on the JET programme, it really didn't offer me much in terms of honing my career. What it did offer me though was a means of getting out into Asia and working. That's really your first (and one of the largest) barrier to entry, especially if you don't have citizenship with an Asian country. If you don't, then you'll need to look at what companies will set you up with a visa. You might have to take a pay cut, you might have to take a job you aren't thrilled with - but if it allows you to get a work permit, it's a stepping stone to moving horizontally / vertically into another position from there. Do your research though - some countries tie visas to their sponsor, so quitting a job might invalidate the visa. Anyway since JET and the countryside (which lots of fun, btw) I moved to Tokyo where my lifestyle has become much more exciting and my career has become much more rewarding. I have been very strict with myself in making sure that I progress in terms of skillset and marketability, and climbed the job ladder until I was at a pretty decent salary level. Then I got disillusioned with it all and decided to go freelance, and have since exponentially increased my income. Tokyo has been a great environment for me. My skillset is competitive in the UK / US, but in Tokyo I'm near the top of the industry. Definitely, living in Asia has contributed to the fast rise in my career and income. What degree did you take and were they specific to your country of residence?I did Accounting & Finance with Computing back in the UK. The degree has no relation to my work now. However for Japan (and I'm guessing other countries too) a degree is essential for you to get a work permit. Did you go to Asia with the intention of finding work there or were you re-located there for work purposes? And what caused you to go?I was shipped here on the JET programme, but it was always in the back of my head that I might like to try working in Tokyo afterwards. I had planned for maybe a year or two in Tokyo but it's looking like I'll be here for a bit longer than that... And yes, I had a certain level of interest in Japan to begin with, but nothing beyond the usual casual interest in the literature or history. Sometimes people ask me why I'm still here - as if I have to be a raving anime fanatic to be the kind of person who would want to live here for so long - but Tokyo is a great place for me to access the rest of Asia, and I am building a great client list here; I'd be mad to move anytime soon. Are the language barriers a severe obstacle and being EA (or anything but full Asian) what was it like integrating with your collegues? Meeting new people and original funding?Being EA has never been a problem. Frankly I think a lot of the "problems" people get into regarding race and the workplace are overblown, or a function of your own insecurities. I've always seen myself as a foreigner, I have no problem with that, and I have no problem being treated like one. The people who have trouble integrating are usually the ones whose own self-image jars with that of their colleagues or friends. I'm lucky in that I don't have any delusions of EA grandeur, I'm just Joe Foreigner trying to make his way in Asia. Meeting people is also never a problem. I admit, I don't have a lot of Japanese friends. Personally, I just get on better with other expats. And in any large metropolitan city, there will be significant expat communities. I mostly hang out with other EA people who, like me, are working in Tokyo but recognise that they are foreigners. There is another group of EA people in Tokyo who hang out together - all born in Japan - and it's striking to see the difference in our little cliques. The language barrier thing, well that's just something to get over. Depends how good with languages and how determined you are I guess. My Japanese is good enough for me to do business, and it took maybe 3 years to get to that level, through a little self-study and lots of practice.
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Post by 2bob on Aug 17, 2007 6:31:38 GMT -5
"ea grandeur?" whats that mean?
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Post by yongfook on Aug 17, 2007 6:33:49 GMT -5
"ea grandeur?" whats that mean? Either: 1) people who expect to be treated specially because they are EA, or 2) people who expect to be treated like a local, because one of their parents is a local
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Post by thekrez on Aug 17, 2007 6:49:11 GMT -5
Hi Micha, I agree good thread. Heres a timeline of myself after I finished university: 2001-5 Worked in Australia for one of the big 4 or back then big 5 consultancies. Did a lot of things from SAP, to Siebel, to custom coding, to training, to project management, everything and anything related to a systems implementation. 2005-2007 Worked in Singapore and Malaysia in various contract roles. This wasnt for the money though and was for the experience. 2007 till now Working in London as a contractor and loving it. For those who are or have worked in Asia but originally grew up elsewhere, how on Earth did you get to where you are or were?I got to a point where I needed to travel and I was sick of Australia. I had outgrown my first job and just needed a different experience. As Jon has mentioned I was dying to work in Asia and go back to Singapore where I had grown up. As a result I took a job that was far below contracting wages in Australia (even worse it was an Indian IT bodyshop). My degree details are below but that had nothing to do with me working in Asia, it was my IT and systems knowledge and the fact I had a great big fat important corporate name on my CV more than anything else, unfortunately. I had a ball, work wise it did nothing for my career as I already knew a lot about my area anyway, and the contracting wages were only equivalent to a permanent salary in Australia so moneywise it was pretty s***, but it did satisfy my burning desire to return to Asia one day, once I had done that I was satisfied. Socially I made some of the best friends that I still keep to this day. And dare I say, it made me mature a little bit, not that you could tell now . What degree did you take and were they specific to your country of residence?My degree is in Accounting with a bit of Chinese and Computer Systems thrown in. I was orginally going to do a 5 year double degree in Chinese and Accounting but I couldnt hack staying the two extra years at uni so I cut it short. And Ive never regretted it since. I would have been two years older than everyone else and it would have added nothing to my career as opposed to two years in the workforce. Did you go to Asia with the intention of finding work there or were you re-located there for work purposes? And what caused you to go?I went to Asia with the intention of working there. I had that job lined up before I went as I am not the risk taking type normally (as opposed to Mr Web Startup Jon!), as I said I was dying to return to a country I regarded as my homeland, Singapore. I did find that growing up and working there are totally different experiences. Especially in IT there is SO much cheap IT labour in the region that you have to really be in management to get anywhere near Western wages, or you need to have been posted from the West. To some extent my rose tinted glasses were thrown away, but I dont regret what I did for one second despite the career sacrifices I made. It was one of defining experiences of my life. Are the language barriers a severe obstacle and being EA (or anything but full Asian) what was it like integrating with your collegues? Meeting new people and original funding?Language barriers wasnt a problem at all and I speak a smattering of Mandarin. Everyone spoke English anyway and with Asian hospitality you make friends quickly if you are friendly and open enough. A lot of white people go to Asia without wanting to even integrate into the culture, and if you do that then of course you wont make any friends. Of course as Jon mentioned you just tend to hang out with expats more often, because you relate and are usually on similar wages, but I made a few Singaporean and Malaysian friends that I keep to this day. I will say that work politics are completely different in Asia. The saving face, the stay back at work if the boss is there, not when you finish, a multitude of things make it a very different experience from working in the West. Hope that helps you matey.
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Post by Micha on Aug 17, 2007 8:18:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses, they've been incredibly useful. I should be starting a degree in Politics and French - absolutely useless (I might change the language to Chinese). In countries like the UK, what you achieved in your degree can usually go further than what the degree was actually taken in but I have a feeling in Asia they are specifically looking for degrees in Finance/Science/I.T. so I'm pretty much screwed in that sense. 2007 till now Working in London as a contractor and loving it. I give it another few months Nathan.
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Post by helles on Aug 17, 2007 11:55:44 GMT -5
definately one of the better threads! slightly tipsy and pretty tired, but here goes..
I moved back to HK 2 years ago (that long!!!!) and applied to random jobs off the internet and saturday classifieds in the english language paper. had a s***ty 'marketing' job that was basically cold calling which sucked for a couple of months in a smally asset management company. very chinese. but it was alright just to get the money rolling in before i found a 'better/proper' job
then i got hired by a big 4. and where i am now, 1.5 years with the company. its an international company, supposedly, but its very chinese at the same time. too chinese at times. i'm probably looking to change jobs in the new year... maybe!
the reason i went back to hk was because i was basically bored of being in the UK. going a bit stir crazy i guess. just needed to get out of there and HK was a good enough place, seeing as i have residency and didn't need to worry about visa's and accomodation and what not.
language is not a problem, i speak cantonese and my work is 99% chinese so cantonese is the main language.. altho being taught stuff in cantonese was hard at times, seeing as i wouldn't have understood in english, let alone all the technical stuff in chinese.. but i'm doing ok!
the only issue i have with working in hk is how dry my workmates are. they are all about work and would work 24/7.. but i'm always first to leave and head out drinking or come to work with a hangover and they dont get it. so i kinda miss the englishness of people/work interaction. most of my frds are outside work ppl, so i guess its good to have the balance. otherwise i'd be going mad!!
i'll probably be here for the short term - 2/3 years maybe. my bf also moved out and he loves it here, the lifestyle and all that - except he cant really stand chinese ppl here!!! he only speaks english and just a very very limited smattering of canto, but he gets by just fine.
i would recommend anyone to come out here for a year or so just to experience something different and ahve a good time!!
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Post by rob on Aug 18, 2007 11:42:10 GMT -5
I had posted a response to these types of questions a couple times since logging in here. If I can't dig them up soon, I'll just post anew.
Anyways, before I do, let me just say working in Asia is friggin awesome and I'd highly recommend it. In fact, I've brought out my brother, friends and a cousin to work in HK and Singapore and they all love it too. Few barriers to entry and none of us were native asian language speakers.
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Post by Micha on Aug 18, 2007 13:05:03 GMT -5
I had coffee with Nathan today and he was saying something about ensuring you work on an expat's salary as opposed to a local's salary. Surely it's hard finding companies willing to send you abroad? (Because of the visa, cost etc.) Or did you go to Asia to find work from scratch?
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Post by Sensei on Aug 18, 2007 18:09:30 GMT -5
^You'd think so wouldn't you? I'm not too sure though... I expect to make sh*t money when I go find an internship there next Spring, even though my Chinese is good and 99% of foreigners working in Shanghai speak little to no Chinese. Oh well... I'll still be happy to go back ;D
edit: I think one of the issues is that even though you could be considered more skilled than local workers, local workers cost a fraction of an ex-pat salary. So if they hired 3 less-qualified domestic workers to do the work that you by yourself could do, it could still be cheaper.
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Post by rob on Aug 18, 2007 18:34:40 GMT -5
Speaking only from my own experience being based in HK and Spore ..... Looks as if most of the expat jobs are related to finance or IT? Not just. There's also Law, Consulting, Education (esp teaching english), Media/Journalism, Public Relations, Engineering, Architecture, Marketing and Communications.... I'm definitely missing some but all the major industries hire "expats". Surely it's hard finding companies willing to send you abroad? (Because of the visa, cost etc.) Or did you go to Asia to find work from scratch? Most companies in Asia (even multinationals) hire directly/locally so you should apply to them directly. If you are overseas at the time of applying, you have to specifically mention that you will be moving to [insert city] regardless to show them you really are committed and not fishing from afar. I also want to know what level of experience/seniority they look for when sending people abroad? Do you see fresh-faced graduates being sent, or have they been with the company for some time? etc etc etc If you could take a snapshot of any organization, the true "expats" (ie white with big salaries/housing pkgs) are very very few and at the senior most level of the organization. Most hires are fresh grads or lateral hires with a couple years experience. W/ the China-hype going on... shouldn't it be easy to find a Western company to employ you there.... w/ an expat salary? I mean you already speak Chinese, don't you? That must be a big plus. I can't speak for China (Jenming/Sensei/Sam?) but at least for HK there is no way you can get expat salaries/benefits. Those days are over. What you have to do is take an entry level job in the organization that you want (or that provides a transferrable skill set) and just suck it up for a year or two. The pay will be pretty bad (lower than W Europe or the Americas) but you can move up more quickly, learn more and save a bit more due to a lower tax rate. Amongst my friends, irrespective of industry, there's a big acceleration effect that hits in year 3 or 4..... thats the time frame when they start to surpass their peers doing the same job in London or New York.
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Post by helles on Aug 18, 2007 19:59:40 GMT -5
Every other 'expat' in HK seems to be a 'teacher'.. the pay is really really good (my bf earned almost double what i did last year and i have a 'professional' job!! this year we'll be on the same and who knows next year. but like rob says, the pay rise is pretty quick altho sh* at the start and i've been working 2 years and only just got my first tax return, which i've worked out to be pretty near nothing!!) and you only need a TEFL -which you can do cheap online - and thats enought to get hired. Most fresh-y grads that are teaching here are just doing it for the money and not putting in any effort, which is a shame, and enjoying hk for the year, saving money and heading off on their travels around SE asia and then OZ/Europe.
Its actually easier to get a job once you arrive in HK (tho, technically, its not allowed by immigration).. my bf applied to loads of jobs whilst still in UK with hardly any response, but within 2 weeks of being in HK and having a HK address/phone number on his CV, he got a job. I think it was the same situation as me too.
I'm not sure how easy it is for fresh grads without right of abode to get work in HK with professional jobs, cos the Company is supposedly only allowed to hire expats if a local cant fulfil the role. Thats why so many start out as teachers then try to look for other work after.
Also, about the pay. Most jobs here ask you to specify your expected salary when you apply. so you can try and ask for an expat wage, if you think you are worth it or the going rate or whatever you feel like you deserve and see if they get back to you.. some do, some dont and you can always try to bargain!
But at the end of the day, the other option to get a job is through connections, esp in China. My frd got work for Sky news/CNN in China by talking to a guy in a bar and getting drunk with him.. - I think that only works in China tho these days.. But say you have a (expat/rich?) family friend who is working mid-high up in a company, its easy for them to put a word in and you can get hired that way, altho that works everywhere, really, doesnt it?!
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Post by miaim on Aug 18, 2007 21:53:49 GMT -5
" For those who are or have worked in Asia but originally grew up elsewhere, how on Earth did you get to where you are or were? What degree did you take and were they specific to your country of residence? E.g. Engineering with Chinese Did you go to Asia with the intention of finding work there or were you re-located there for work purposes? And what caused you to go?" well, in my case, i was looking for a job in japan for family reasons (my parents & my brother live in japan).... my dad looked through the English language job offers in Japan and was sending me ads, i applied, took tests online, was called for an interview and was hired on a semi-expat package (they paid for my flight & moving expenses).... in japan, japanese and foreign multinationals are hiring a lot of japanese-speaking native foreign language (English, Chinese, Hindu etc) speakers.....cuz they need people who act as communication bridges between the Japanese staff and the local staff abroad.... can't say for the Chinese area cuz the pool of Chinese speakers is much larger than japanese speakers.... if you want to be paid well from the get-go in Asia tho, you need to have specialized skills and be fluent in the local language- otherwise, you'll be on local new graduate salaries..... when i applied for jobs in japan just a couple of years out of college, i was competing with other japanese....now, after a decade as a specialised translator in france, i'm on a semi-expat package.... it's a totally different game: my position is much stronger now than when i didn't have much work experience or skills..... " Are the language barriers a severe obstacle and being EA (or anything but full Asian) what was it like integrating with your collegues? Meeting new people and original funding?" i think you need to speak the language nowadays - unless you have specialised skills that are in high demand.....in which case, as long as you speak english, lack of local language skills will be over-looked..... personally, don't have a problem integrating with my colleagues - but then again, i don't really compete with them cuz i'm seen as the expat specialist, not a generalist new graduate hire.....and having native english language skills puts you on a different career track to the locals..... to sum up, it's a choice: either acquire specialised, marketable skills and go to Asia as an expat (the pay and benefits are better), or just start as a new graduate without skills and try and move up the ladder by exploiting your english and understanding of western culture, assuming you speak the local lingo.... as for degrees - unless it's a science degree (engineering, physics, maths etc), having a master's is more important than the major read......and language degrees are utterly useless unless you go get the "official" translation/interpretation qualifications (ontop of degrees) too....which brings me back to having "specialized skills"..... but it's so easy to test language skills, having a minor or even a major in a language (particularly in one of your parents' native languages) won't help much....for some reason, EAs are expected to be fluent in both.....but you can work the assumption that you have a foot in two cultures to your advantage too - makes you stand out from the local staff..... in other words, don't be afraid to work your "difference" to your advantage.... hope that helps! feel free to ask any questions.... peace
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Post by Micha on Aug 19, 2007 15:51:10 GMT -5
The whole 'pay rise is quick' thing sounds attractive, I guess I'll just have to hang in there for a good few years. I think rob is right about loving living in Asia. Work is work but I'd much rather come into the office surrounded by miserable, sucidial workers in say, Singapore and pop down to my local Kopitiam during break and be able to jet off to Thailand, Malaysia, Burma on the weekend than come into the office surrounded by miserable, sucidal workers in the UK and pop down to the pub during break to talk about how the sun was last seen 2 months ago and the rising price of stamps.
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