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Post by waywardwolf on Sept 24, 2007 1:02:45 GMT -5
Argg.. sorry, my computer's on the fritz. Anyway, despite Muslim aggression, Westerners taught them true viciousness. I don't think the extremists of the Middle East would exist in the state they are today if the Crusades didn't take place.
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Post by Ave` on Sept 24, 2007 1:17:21 GMT -5
lets not forget its the western who helped Osama and Saddam Hussein in the 1st place
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Post by waywardwolf on Sept 24, 2007 1:36:06 GMT -5
Those who cannot forget the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Post by waywardwolf on Sept 24, 2007 4:01:18 GMT -5
I would like you to elaborate on the history of the Crusades as you understand it, with particular reference to your last sentence. Hah! Well, though I usually didn't comply with my teachers' request like this, I suppose you asked nicely enough. The Crusades were supposedly started because the Muslims were conquering the Byzantine Empire and the Christians meant to reclaim these lost lands. Sure, it had something to do with it, I think another factor is that the Vikings and.. Magyars? (Sorry, been a while since school) had converted to Christianity, but bloodlust isn't easily dispelled, causing infighting amongst Christian knights. So, to give them something to do, they decided to retake former Christian kingdoms. I know history doesn't really agree with me, but Western leaders often lie to their subjects to justify war. *ahh..ahhhh..ahhhhh.... Iraq!* Excuse me. Well, I think that the tactics of these Crusaders very much hardened the Muslims and changed the way the Middle East looks at the West forever. Catapulting corpses over walls to demoralize enemy troops, and though the Christians no longer considered the Vikings barbarians because of their adoption of faith, I'm sure they still knew how to spread havoc. I once heard that elephants, who were orphaned by poachers, will sometimes kill rhinos sharing nature reserves with them for no reason at all. Bloodlust is contageous.
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Post by miaim on Sept 24, 2007 6:47:51 GMT -5
" authentic, devout Muslims tend to be ultra-conservative and fundamentalist " says you - this is precisely part of the problem: westerners imposing their own, one-sided prejudiced views on what Islam is... the prejudice, ignorance and resulting fear lies in your belief that an authentic Muslim is ultra-conservative and fundamentalist....you sound just like them: any Muslim who doesn't agree with the ultra-conservative and fundamentalist view is not authentic - a kafir!, as the radicals would say... so, you're actually contributing to the problem by legitimising the conservative, fundamentalist nationalists against the liberal/progressive Muslims.... which is also what the western media and governments do, intentionally or not, only "god" knows, i suppose.... like any centuries-old religion, Islam is a broad church, for want of a better phrase... and anyway, how ignorant would a non-Muslim have to be to feel confident enough to declare who is and isn't an "authentic" Muslim? jaysus, lord have mercy....insh'Allah! and yes, like it or not, there are socio-economic (=political) reasons why certain schools of interpretation are more powerful than others at any given moment in history....and if you understand why, there is no reason to fear, is there? ooops, sorry there is in kevinland: claim the most conservative, nationalist, literalist interpretation of Islam, the one that scares him most, is the "authentic" one....talk about creating drama in your own head.... peace
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Post by miaim on Sept 24, 2007 7:36:47 GMT -5
^ An elementary task such as attending mosque would be a distinguishing mark of an authentic Muslim, yes? Then what do you have to say about the fact that most mosque-attending Muslims in London belong to the hardline Deobandi / Salafist-Wahhabist sects, hmmm? just because one attends a certain place of worship does not necessarily mean one agrees with the views expressed by the leaders... and this is where you expose, presumably unwittingly, your ignorance: if your assertion is true, same could be said of the Catholic Church - since the Catholic Church hierarchy from the Vatican down is ultra-conservative, the only "authentic" Catholics are the ultra-conservative ones, eh? true or false? more broadly, same could be said of the Christian Churches in general.... plenty of Catholics, and Christians, would disagree that the only "authentic" Catholic/Christians are the ultra conservative ones who attend regularly services - ultra conservative or not.... and many worshipers even attend churches even if they don't agree with the ultra or not conservative line the church/mosque leaders may take or follow, sometimes for the sake of keeping their jobs/financing....dun ask me why because i wouldn't - but they do... if you know how attendance at places of worship works, you would know that who finances the particular place of worship is not very high on the list of attendees.... and who controls which purse strings in any given religion brings us back to politics - something you avoid rigorously....only the lord know why, i suppose.... peace
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Post by Ave` on Sept 24, 2007 8:29:14 GMT -5
Ohh dear not the table again. Fear the table!
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Post by Ajeno on Sept 24, 2007 8:43:48 GMT -5
People imposing their own, one-sided prejudiced views on what Islam is?...You dont say..
___ Hey yeah, Americanphobia..
People who suffer from Americanphobia are basically victims of mass media. We all know there are other threats to world peace. So get a grip people with Americanphobia and stop pretending like you're the victim here.
But lucky theres people like me, so people see both sides and not get carried away with their definition of reality.
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Post by Ave` on Sept 24, 2007 9:02:03 GMT -5
Im having a cronic deja-vu o.O
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Post by miaim on Sept 24, 2007 17:52:10 GMT -5
People imposing their own, one-sided prejudiced views on what Islam is?...You dont say.. ___ Hey yeah, Americanphobia.. People who suffer from Americanphobia are basically victims of mass media. We all know there are other threats to world peace. So get a grip people with Americanphobia and stop pretending like you're the victim here. But lucky theres people like me, so people see both sides and not get carried away with their definition of reality. well okay, then... let's play "name a major conflict since WWII the USA has not been involved in and stoked"! for the record, it's not a criticism of the USA per se, just of US foreign policy.... but since any criticism of US foreign policy is "Americanphobia", let's see if you can defend the US government's record.... i'm being perfectly serious, btw: you'll have a hard time naming conflicts that the USA was not involved in....good luck! peace
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Post by Ajeno on Sept 24, 2007 18:39:16 GMT -5
^You would'nt even be able to defend Islam's record my dear.But feel free to rant and critisize the U.S and all the terrible things it's had its hand in,Ill probaly agree with most of it.Just leave the million's of good people out of your gross generalizations about the U.S is all i ask and dont forget that the rest of the world isnt so innocent.
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Post by miaim on Sept 24, 2007 18:57:36 GMT -5
can't up with any conflicts the US hasn't been involved in, i take it? anyway, thanks for making my point: anti-USAmerican sentiment isn't groundless and it's not about the USAmerican way of life but a reaction to US foreign policy... i've been quite clear about drawing a distinction between the two: me no understand why you take criticism of US foreign policy as a generalisation on millions of USAmericans.... peace
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Post by Ajeno on Sept 24, 2007 22:01:26 GMT -5
Was my initial post really that hard to grasp? Did i not explain myself clearly on what my beefs were regarding Islam and how people feel America as a whole hate's Islam when places like Europe might have more of a beef with it(which you agreed to)? But it seems the focus is always on the U.S eh? Do i have to keep repeating myself? You're proving people cant speak about Islam without being jumped on.
And, I guess "Islamaphobia" is groundless? Islam's record is spotless? Its all just ignorance to you? Fascinating stuff..Hey feel free to critisize U.S foreign policy and talk about the terrible stuff the U.S has done all you want is doesnt bother me..
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Post by Ajeno on Sept 24, 2007 22:57:31 GMT -5
Ethel - Your right....I think the U.S gets involved way too much and I wish we could just stop trying to police the world and let the world sort itself out for good or worse..We need to mind our own business sometimes basically.
Also people bring up Iraq a lot and our occupation there but its way more complicated than that and our affairs with them go back to the early 80's.
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Post by Ave` on Sept 25, 2007 0:41:57 GMT -5
Ethel you have grossly misintreprete a lot of things. Just by claiming u know a lot of muslim ppl doesnt mean you KNOW the religion. Youre still looking it from the outside aka the western way and define freedom in your western style and much good its making your country. All Im trying to say is that what you define freedom couldnt be similar to other people. The best part of your comments is you wish ppl live their life on the ideal way and how YOU think things should be. Lemme break this slowly to you..nobody care what u think. Nobody wants to live their live based on what u think or what YOU think ideal for them. Thausands of muslim women would fight for their right to wear hijab. Millions of Iranian and Indonesian would bash your head till u produce seven shades of s***s, if they hear you idiotic comment. I cant comment on all ur drunk comments. Try to do some research by yourself
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