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Post by miaim on Sept 25, 2007 7:20:09 GMT -5
but how can they change perceptions when the moderates don't own any media outlets (even the Arab media is owned/controlled by Saudi Arabia, the financier of the radical terrorists)?
and any attempt to discuss grievances they may share with the terrorists (as opposed to condoning the tactics) is portrayed as an apology for terrorism?
this even happens to me: how many times have i been accused of being a terrorist sympathiser because i point out some, but not all, of their grievances may be legitimate?
peace
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Post by Ave` on Sept 25, 2007 7:23:51 GMT -5
Mr. zoff you got it all a$$-backward. Muslims ppl dont owe ppl any explanation. They dont FAIL when ppl around them are IGNORANT esspecially when there are so many means to find the truth. Didnt anyone tell you to not trust the news? pfft
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Post by EA Observer on Sept 25, 2007 7:24:27 GMT -5
Two wrongs do not make a right. Yet, that's eactly how the world operates, isn't it? Fighting fire with fire, tit for tat, violence begetting violence, propaganda and counter-propaganda. It's not about who's wrong or who's right, at all, but who can back up oneself with his might against the other: might makes right, in the end - has been and always will in any power struggle.
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Post by miaim on Sept 25, 2007 7:32:20 GMT -5
if they don't know better and believe everything in the mainstream media, or even make sh*t up (like CS) based on lord knows what, then it's not surprising that any ability to reason in a rational, logical manner about such a large issue is absent..... Excuse me? Make sh*t up? and how would you know anything, even though in your condescension you obviously THINK you know it all. Stick to facts not personal attacks if you want any credibility. " currently no one else on the planet is blowing themselves up" - this, quite clearly, is untrue...and i see you went back to edit your post after claiming that FGM was only practised by Muslims..... here, your original post: and from now on, i'll make a point of quoting you lest you backtrack and try and get out of a stupid, easy to google and check claim: I think its mostly because westerners see unfathomable acts which go against every modern ideal being performed by people who are muslim. Burning and destroying European businesses over a couple of cartoons, stoning women for wanting to run in a race with men, clitoral mutilation and honor killings - all societal, not governmental, expressions. And lets not forget suicide bombers - currently no one else on the planet is blowing themselves up to kill the most civilians it can except one identifiable group. I think these are the main and understandable reasons why people have fears and concerns. And I don't think one can casually dismiss those fears as ignorance. and here's a fact: you claimed " currently no one else on the planet is blowing themselves up"... pray, if you didn't make up " currently no one else on the planet is blowing themselves up", then where did you come up with this utter nonsense? if you want to be credible, check your facts BEFORE posting instead of having false claims proven wrong and going back to edit your posts..... and no, i don't know it all - just know more than you about certain issues....which isn't saying much..... peace
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Post by miaim on Sept 25, 2007 7:42:16 GMT -5
Even if there are legitimate grievances, they are no excuse for terrorism, and the claimed grievances always seem to be given as excuses. The message should be, "this is wrong, no matter what." Only when that starts to happen will people begin to sympathise, because they are sick of hearing "but". then how are these grievances ever supposed to be discussed and discussed when they will always be labeled as an excuse for terrorism? and EAObserver has got a point: it's all very well telling people who have grievances to condemn terrorism "no matter what"....to people who think some wars are justified? it's okay to invade Afganistan because of 9/11, it's okay to invade countries if we *think* they may have WMDs...but it's wrong, no matter what, if an organised group of private citizens carry out an attack on a target that they feel, legitimately or not, poses a threat to their own security? whaaaaat? see the inconsistency? it's like there is a hierarchy of violence...state violence is okay but not if it's carried out by non-state groups.... and it's easy to tell people who have no money and power to "organise" and get their message across in the face of an avalanche of hostile coverage from both sides....got any constructive ideas? peace
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Post by 0 on Sept 25, 2007 7:44:50 GMT -5
Excuse me? Make sh*t up? and how would you know anything, even though in your condescension you obviously THINK you know it all. Stick to facts not personal attacks if you want any credibility. " currently no one else on the planet is blowing themselves up" - this, quite clearly, is untrue...and i see you went back to edit your post after claiming that FGM was only practised by Muslims..... here, your original post: and from now on, i'll make a point of quoting you lest you backtrack and try and get out of a stupid, easy to google and check claim: I think its mostly because westerners see unfathomable acts which go against every modern ideal being performed by people who are muslim. Burning and destroying European businesses over a couple of cartoons, stoning women for wanting to run in a race with men, clitoral mutilation and honor killings - all societal, not governmental, expressions. And lets not forget suicide bombers - currently no one else on the planet is blowing themselves up to kill the most civilians it can except one identifiable group. I think these are the main and understandable reasons why people have fears and concerns. And I don't think one can casually dismiss those fears as ignorance. and here's a fact: you claimed " currently no one else on the planet is blowing themselves up"... pray, if you didn't make up " currently no one else on the planet is blowing themselves up", then where did you come up with this utter nonsense? if you want to be credible, check your facts BEFORE posting instead of having false claims proven wrong and going back to edit your posts..... and no, i don't know it all - just know more than you about certain issues....which isn't saying much..... peace actually I edited to mention my teenage conversion. To westerners the Tamil Tigers aren't widely known nor signifigant news. Sri Lanka is not the west. People are concerned with what impacts them - things like 9/11, Israel, Madrid, London and Bali bombings - things where westerners are the target. The same response was made to the Kamikaze - it was unfathomable to the Americans.
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Post by Ajeno on Sept 25, 2007 8:12:42 GMT -5
and EAObserver has got a point: it's all very well telling people who have grievances to condemn terrorism "no matter what"....to people who think some wars are justified? it's okay to invade Afganistan because of 9/11, it's okay to invade countries if we *think* they may have WMDs...but it's wrong, no matter what, if an organised group of private citizens carry out an attack on a target that they feel, legitimately or not, poses a threat to their own security? whaaaaat? peace I think you should stop trying to help Islam right now being that you seem to be and on top of that you're not a very good spokesperson for any cause ..I think you're done for today.. No personal attacks please
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Post by miaim on Sept 25, 2007 8:51:21 GMT -5
how can western imperialism and its support of the chief financier of radically, ultra-conservative/nationalist/fundamentalist, Saudi Arabia, not be discussed if we are talking about modern Sunni Islam?
the money and ideological trail of all the Sunni extremists always lead back to Saudi Arabia, a client US/western state....
pretending that Saudi Arabia, a country propped up by the West, is not at the root of all this is....utterly pointless.....as is pretending the West has not helped fuel this problem, with the passive consent of happily foreign-policy ignorant voters....
discussing anything else is just beating about the bush describing symptoms, real or not....
yes, extremists exist - but there is nothing you can do about it if you can't understand WHY....because the causes won't go away just because westerners want to pretend they don't exist....and part of the causes are western foreign policy...nobody, not westerners nor Muslims nor Asians, exist in a vacuum....
it's simple common sense, isn't it?
which brings me back to ignorance: why are so many of so intent on not recognising that your country's foreign policy has contributed to the problem?
peace
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Post by miaim on Sept 25, 2007 9:06:35 GMT -5
everyone in the page: there's no point in discussing Islamophobia in isolation to everything else (e.g. internal Muslim politics and western foreign policy)....
the Saudis finance a lot of the mosques in the West and elsewhere - which explains why the hardliners are so prominent: they are the ones who have money....
and how do the Saudi royal family cling to power? by financing the hardline Wahibbists and staying cozy with the west (okay, and selling the west its oil)....
and why don't westerners know the most elementary basics, such as the above? think for yourselves if you don't want to be accused of being ignorant....
peace
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Post by miaim on Sept 25, 2007 9:18:57 GMT -5
it would be if the people trying to explain why didn't cite the extremists' actions as reasons...but that's not the case, is it?
this thread is an endless litany of the Muslim extremists' actions.....
peace
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Post by Ajeno on Sept 25, 2007 9:21:25 GMT -5
What a yawnfest..
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Post by miaim on Sept 25, 2007 10:49:12 GMT -5
@kevin,
you know perfectly well, because we've been over this many times, that the alliance between the Saudi royal family and the Wahabists does not go that far back.... the key here being the alliance between the Wahabists and the House of Saud....
@ethel,
the West does not always mean the USA....
if you're not familiar with Britain's history of divide and conquer in India before partition as well as US support of Pakistani dictatorships and the conflict in Kashmir, not to mention of conservative/fundamentalist forces during the Afgan War, please go and google it or read a book....
the US picked up where the Europeans left off - it's a recurring theme in 19th&20th century history....the Philippines, Cuba, Vietnam, etc, etc, etc....
@zoff,
things don't happen in a vacuum - it's your choice not to care but that does not mean provocation did not occur, either.... there is usually a reason why things happen: it's called cause and effect.... as i said, it's your choice to ignore the causes of terrorism....but that won't make the causes go away - well okay, maybe they will in your mind but nowhere else...
peace
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Post by EA Observer on Sept 25, 2007 11:51:07 GMT -5
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Post by Ajeno on Sept 25, 2007 13:05:37 GMT -5
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Post by miaim on Sept 25, 2007 18:24:43 GMT -5
@miamim You kept emphasizing the US so thank you for finally bringing other Western nations into the equation. If I were so ignorant, stupid, and never reading I wouldn't have even known about Pakistan and India. I am willing to learn from your knowledge, if you have any, but all you say is something along these lines "Why are they picking on me. I want them to understand me better and speak highly of me AUTOMATICALLY. I just want to tell them them to say beautiful postive things because it's all their fault and not my fault if I become violent. I'm an innocent no matter what I do. They're scared because it's all their fault but I won't tell them why. I'll just tell them to please stop it because I'm hurt. " Stop crying. Tell us which books to read, which people to speak with. How can we empathize when you DON'T want to intelligently debate and educate us in the process. Furthermore how come Vietphobia and Cubanphobia isn't as great and scary? Maybe because they're "nicer"? The USA is always interfering with Latin AMerican countries. Yes, there have been casualties in the process but the world isn't fearful of Latinos. The Latinos could act the same as these Muslim extremists and some do but I have yet heard of a substantial number of Latin AMericans acting in such an extreme way. Maybe you can start training them since you don't come across in my opinion as someone who is willing to "talk" or "listen" you'll have to do a search of my old posts for links and book recommendations.... i just don't have the time anymore - i've posted dozens of links to books and free but very long articles..... teach yourself, please.... see, i'm tired of going over the same thing that anyone who is familiar with the history of modern Islam knows: the reason why Sunni Muslim extremists are feared in the West is because they are backed by an oil-rich country that finances them for its own domestic political reasons - which isn't the case for anyone else....they can attack the West because they can afford to.... US or Europe, it's all the West - it just depends on which point in history you're talking about....since the US picks up where the Europeans left off, what material difference does it make? surely, if the Muslims are all the same, you can accept non-whites think all whites are the same, no? @z, if terrorism is causing the fear, it seems logical that the cause of the fear must be understood....but no doubt you will say the reason for the attacks are irrelevant... in which case, you'll just have to stay intentionally oblivious to the causes of the actions that are scaring you....your choice, as i said.... you're basically claiming the motive in a murder case is irrelevant....if you say so! peace
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